E-Bay 2 Group

[ed_vinas]

Did anyone here pickup the Bazzera for $800 on e-bay?

http://tinyurl.com/5zuos

Not a bad price for a commercial 2 group machine.....

Ed

[Fresh_Coffee]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

If anyone from this group has bought it then they need to note that these machines are well known in the industry for being coffee burners...they run too hot. If someone is "handy", they will have a nice project on their hands over time working out how to try and cool the brew water down to an acceptable level...its not as easy as you might think. There were also recurring problems with steam valves, and later valves were re engineered internally by the manufacturer. A model that is built quite solidly & "keeps on keeping on" for years while producing lowqual brews in cafes.

The price is very good for someone wanting a cheapy but beware the above.

Also note that when purchasing someone elses used handmedown you can also inherit nests of cockroaches (and they do wonderfiul things to computer cards in touchpads and electronic controllers) so suggest a thorough washing right throughout the machine with a high pressure garden hose (outside & down the backyard), dry thoroughly over a period of days, and then put cockroach baits in the machine before bringing inside.

Regardez,
FC.

[warren]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

Also note that when purchasing someone elses used handmedown you can also inherit nests of cockroaches

A good article relating to some of these niceties. A guy in Amsterdam buys a 2nd hand Giotto and finds a dead mouse with advanced stages of rigor-mortis inside. :-X

http://www.toomuchcoffee.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&btitl e=CE&mid=&ceid=57

Compelling reading ;D

Warren -

[Fresh_Coffee]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

Yup, the mice eat the wiring harness and eventually electrocute themselves if they have eaten through unreduced mains voltage, the cockroaches step across boards and fry your electronics (as well as themselves)....expensive.

Regardez,
FC.

[warren]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

Eeesss not a mouse Mister Fawlty eees an amster!

How many times must I tell you !!

The gentleman does not want a fried mouse with his ristretto! ;D



Warren -

[mauricem]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

Single groups seem to bring higher prices than twins as most home users dont want the expense of running and the extra space required for a twin.

I nearly bought an ex commercial usage bezzera 35 single group for $700 but there was lots of evidence of past leaks which the seller tried to assure me was completely normal
It was plumbed in with rotary procon pump and I was keen to compare to my vibe pump output.

[Fresh_Coffee]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

Realistically you wont find any diff between the output /performance from a  motor driven rotary impeller pumped machine VS a machine fitted with a vibrating solenoid  pump, in the single group home use environment. In fact, it can easily be proven there is definite DISadvantage in having a machine fitted with an impeller pump at home because in domestic service, we see a lot more failed impeller pumps than vibration pumps, even though there a lot fewer machines in home use fitted with impeller pumps than there are fitted with vibrating pumps. Impeller pumps cost more than double the price or more than that of a vibrating pump.

In addition, the manufacturers of rotary impeller pumps seem to take it "in turns" to produce batches of faulty units....that end up seizing prematurely in service.

I would also keep in mind that with commercial machines that have been in service for a while, one of the things that usually requires replacement as a result of the machine being taken out  service and left to sit around inactive before being sold off, is the impeller water pump. Older units have a habit  of seizing when left to sit without use. They "tighten up" with age but continue to spin with regular work but as soon  as they are left to sit a while...seize. So thats an immediate cost of roughly $220.00 (to start, depending on the type) on top of the price of the used machine, before cost of fitting.

Give me a solenoid vibrating pump fitted semicommercial with internal water tank any day in "at home" use, rather than one fitted with an impeller pump and mains water connection.

Regardez,
FC.

[warren]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

I would also keep in mind that with commercial machines that have been in service for a while, one of the things that usually requires replacement as a result of the machine being taken out service and left to sit around inactive before being sold off, is the impeller water pump.

Heres a good article in regards to this. Gives reasons for rotary pump failures.

http://espressorescue.com/pump.html

Warren -

[FrenchBean]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

Oh well to the person who purchased the 2 group.. Ed and I at least wish you the best with it....

Life of Brian.. Guys.......... "Always look on the bright side of life".... he might have got a good one.

Encouragement is a good thing too.

:FB

[Fresh_Coffee]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

Thankyou for taking a shot FB,  occasionally it does pay to be reminded that its a good thing to be really positive about things, and to give us the opportunity to further the discussion.  
 
So to the chap in this group that bought the BZ on ebay, the subject of this thread...good on you mate, you bought a real beauty, one of the best decisions youve probably ever made in your life. They are a top espresso machine, make great coffee, the wife will love you for ever more for buying something that will take up all her prep space in the kitchen resulting in her never having to cook for the family again (will be eating out), and I know you wont begrudge paying the plumber his fee to intall plumbing, water filtration and drainage, the electrician for setting up a 15 amp electrical circuit where the wasnt one, the exterminator for his work with the nest of roaches, and the spare parts stockist for the water pump and other bits and pieces that will be required....  

.......I agree it pays to be positive but that does not mean we need to stick our heads in the sand. The advice given first off in the thread was simply intended to be a "helping hand", not a put down.  
 
My understandking is that it is en extremely positive thing for participants in this Forum to hear the truth...nicely...on occasion so they can learn from others experience or mistakes instead of having to make their own expensive ones.

Realistically, a used commercial machine that cost $800 on ebay is nothing more than a "have". The owner will forever more be able to say what a bargain he got, but he wont dare mention to others that it ended up costing atleast double that by the time all the hidden costs were factored in. And yes, it might be ok for someone that is "handy", but by the same token it will be nothing short of a nightmare for someone that isnt, but who got carried away with wanting a large commercial machine for home, and who was on a "budget" to start with and thought the price paid would for the most part be the end of it.

So, a 10 year old 2 group cafe machine like this that has done its time can end up costing more than double and its still a 10 year old obsolete machine that takes 30 minutes to heat up before it can be used...for most this is very inconvenient in home use....the $800 price is nothing short of deceiving in the extreme and therefore bad for participants in this Forum, and makes any $2000.00 or more new semicommercial with a guarantee that will work properly from the moment it is plugged in look great and very positive in the eyes of this forum participant.

In my honest opinion, and whilst this may be the subject of another separate topic, I believe the auctioning of used  commercial espresso machines is fraught with problems (for non industry purchasers) and represents nothing short of a system that gives the owners of obsolete, worthless, problematic equipment the oportunity to convert worthless goods into some ready cash, thereby taking advantage of enthusiastic but naive (in the sense of knowing good equipment from not so good etc) home espresso enthusiasts.

And sure whilst I will admit that occasionaly someone gets a real bargain, my discusison is geared to the majority
.
Regardez,
FC.

[warren]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

They are a top espresso machine, make great coffee, the wife will love you for ever more for buying something that will take up all her prep space in the kitchen resulting in her never having to cook for the family again (will be eating out)

All that said FC, this is just a hypothetical question mind you ... If somebody walked into your store and said;

"I wish to purchase your finest 2 group machine for my little kitchen to serve coffee to say 2 people a day".

Would you given the vast expense of this machine be the consumate pragmatist and try to dissuade them in any way given their extreme dogma for this product and talk them down to a single group home-friendly machine worth at least half the price of this one ???

Purely a hypothetical question as I said Im sure most people who purchase used machines via Ebay for a fraction of their original cost and their most probable inherent problems are most likely subsribers to the maxim "Caveat Emptor"

At least wed hope that they are.

Warren -

[ed_vinas]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

I’m almost sorry I started this thread….on the other-hand, FC has brought some realities to the forefront with regard to purchasing a used commercial machine.  Gone are any romantic ideas of owning a four-group FB70 for home (http://www.lamarzocco.com/fb70.html) …..not a bad thing (says my wife).

On a serious note, when evaluating the worthiness of a second hand espresso machine (be it commercial, semi-commercial or home appliance), what would you look at as areas of possible concern?  

Ed

[GR8WineandCoffee]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

The $800 paid might seem to be a bargain, and I hope it is for the person who purchased it. However, I have heard some horror stories about cheapish commercial espresso machines from auctions etc. Personally, I would not touch one with a barge pole, even thought I could repair it. In many cases these machines could have had numerous owners and are well past their use by date.
If it was purchased for a domestic situation, that is fine, but what a hastle, waiting for it to heat up, 30-40 minutes, all the power it would chew up and possibly have to run a 15 or 20 amp circuit. Usually what is done is chop off the funny plug that does not fit in the household power point and replace it with one that does. Mmmmmmmmmmmm!
If it was for the domestic situation, the buyer would have been better of buying something like a Silvia.
These days it is rare to find a bargain. You get what you pay for.
Another thing to consider is, if it was in good condition and working , it would have been worth a lot more through the trade!!!!!!!!!
John

[Fresh_Coffee]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

Warren,

in answer to your question I think it is best policy to "fit" the equipment to the client so you try & find out exactly what he expects and will do with it (this may be diff to what he initially thinks he wants), then advise accordingly. Selling a client exactly what he wants without going through the motions of trying to work out the above can backfire by turning the client despondent in the future. It is shortsighted to look at only the immediate sale, rather than the possible sales to the client and his friends (through recommendation) down the track.

Ed, I am glad the posts were taken in the context in which they were intended and that is to be helpful. The problem is simply that of hidden costs and it is not unusual to have people land on the doorstep with their $500.00 treasure just bought at auction, inoperative, and for them to become aggressively despondent, with you, when you give them the quote to make the machine properly operable, which will in many cases be more than was paid for the machine. Then there are the hidden costs of fitment in the house.

Individual machines have different problems (or not), but certain models have recurring problems that are well know in trade circles but not by domestic clients.

I would not buy a used esp machine except from a reputable merchant who gives "service" OR unless it can be hooked up and demonstrated in front of me and I can see & hear it brewing properly. I would also remove the top tray and have a look inside for leaks, particularly around the boiler end plate, the element, and the water pump. I would also simply lift the bottom drip tray and have a look at the frame. This always gives an indication of amount of use, or whether it has been managed "caringly". A filthy bottom end is indicative of rough ownership and lack of other service.

Depending on the area, some brands are "better than others" due to availability of service, so brand NAME is not necessarily an indication of "quality" in long term service.

Except in the case of a Bo-Ema (because they never supplied machines this way from new unless you bought the extra), it must always be supplied complete with an extra group handle (ie 1 group machine = 2 group handles), and in the case of an older machine, it MUST come complete with the external motor and water pump assembly and all inlet water lines. If any of these items are missing they add hundreds of dollars to the cost of placing the machine back into service, let alone any repairs that may be required. Budget for a new water pump in your calculations whether you know it needs one or not. In the case of electrionic touchpad machines make sure all the touchpads work as these individually can be worth more than the value of the entire used machine if the machine is wrecked for parts. In this case also be aware that the paddles in water turbines in electronic machines fail over time and this can give a false impression and make it look like a touchpad is faulty when it may not be. Some models are well know to have extremely "weak" steam valves so feel for play in the spindles or water / steam leaking past the spindles. An electronic machine that is "dead" when hooked up may have a failed electronic controller. These are very expensive and dependent on brand etc etc etc

There are some brands and models that I would never buy either new or used and particularly in home use situations, for various reasons usually because of the availability of parts, or the cost of parts, or because they are unnecessarily overengineered (more things to go wrong, more reliance on the need for a specialist service provider), or the extremely poor level of service to be expected from the importers of certain brands but afraid it would not go down well for me to list them publicly...

In short, dont buy a used machine unless it is demonstarted to you as being complete and operating properly, and ask a few questions in independent places where you have a chance of getting a professional answer, before writing the cheque.

Regardez,
FC.

[FrenchBean]

Re: E-Bay 2 Group

I have a Boema..... Great machine/Fantastic machine.... We use it for everything Saucepans, Hot water, Hot chocolates, Teas, hot water bottles and even the occasional Coffee.

I rebuilt mine from the ground up, re-wired, new gaskets seals filters you name it, the tank was painted with acid (and well flushed and washed before re-assembly) to remove any grime and basically re-built the unit from the ground up... the final product was virtually a new machine and I put a new pump on it because I didnt get one with it, the water level controller was not working and I also stripped it down and replaced a couple of parts in it as well.... The machine now sits in our kitchen and has produced thousands of coffees over the last 12 months and hasn’t skipped a beat and the quality of the brew? A barrista of 30 years was very impressed with it and noted that the pressures were exact and the temperature of the extraction was as it should be and gave a brew as good as a newer commercial machine... My point here is that the Machine was very cheap and I knew of the problems it might have but the greatest thing that I got from it was the chance to re-build it and restore it to a fully functioning practical machine that will give me many years of service.... I would not even consider never doing it again....and I would recommend anyone with a bit of handy man common sense to give it a go... You dont have to buy new to get great extraction from an espresso machine... You can knock as much as you like but this FrenchBean wont knock the attempts or machines that others own or are trying to restore... Coffee should be enjoyed and the process should be FUN....

Ever wondered why people restore old cars?... does this make the restored vehicles incapable of being transport?

Ed Don’t be sorry, you opened up your comments with an encouraging point, that they didn’t pay a bad price for it…. We must be encouraging of people who step out and pay the money they do for their coffee machines even if they are second hand. Takes a brave soul to do that… Thomas Cho purchased a second hand unit and he has never looked back……. He loves his unit…. So do I but he won’t part with it ;-) I also wonder how many more have second hand machines and who would snavel up a used Sylvia id they had the chance..

FB