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Can Italians make great coffee?

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  • #16
    Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

    SOme interesting replies to my question. Those people who told me the coffee in Italy is pretty ordinary I suspect may have had tourist experiences. As many tourists in Italy are from the US, the baristas have got to serving ditch water (no offence) lest be accused of the coffee being too strong.

    I do remember being laughed at by a Barista in Italy for ordering a cappucino after dinner. The locals were all giving me a funny look as i drank it.

    For many years the best coffee in Sydney was from the Italian places on Victoria st (notably Colluzi Bar). It would be fair to say that coffee in Sydney these days is consistently good. The Barista is a specific JD, not just a waiter, and get s well paid for it.

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    • #17
      Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

      Originally posted by Beanhead link=1185414494/15#15 date=1185593062
      I do remember being laughed at by a Barista in Italy for ordering a cappucino after dinner.  The locals were all giving me a funny look as i drank it.
      Italians tend to treat milk as a food rather than a drink, which is why they look the way they do at after-dinner cappuccino drinkers. They cannot understand why you would continue to "eat" after youve just finished dinner.

      Cappas are nowhere near as popular in Italy as they are here. Over there, they tend to be consumed in the morning only.

      As for the coffee itself, the standard is pretty high IMHO.

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      • #18
        Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

        Originally posted by Beanhead link=1185414494/15#15 date=1185593062
        The Barista is a specific JD, not just a waiter, and get s well paid for it.  
        You wont find an award rate for it though.

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        • #19
          Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

          I think the general quality of coffee I have experianced in Italy is excellent, I always prefer capps there, and find them generally beautifully silky smooth and creamy, its funny though cos it seems they use UHT milk alot of times. Its cool how only a few meters off the tourist strips there are great little barres and cafes that are more than happy with your custom if you show a little interest.

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          • #20
            Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

            Originally posted by robusto link=1185414494/0#12 date=1185535264
            Zedd, youll have to drop in on  Cafe Vivace in Seattle and give us a full run down on whether 3/10th of a degree Fahrenheit makes all the difference...

            And...

            Whether David Schomer is as nerdy looking as his photos.

            --Robusto
            Will do Robusto - I have made a note!!!!

            Dont know if Ill get to Portland nunu... but I will be checking out where the SCAA recommends as good coffee places!

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            • #21
              Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

              Ive just returned from a week in Italy.

              My observations on the coffee would be that... it varies greatly. Notwithstanding the obviously darker roast preference of the locals, I was a bit surprised that tamping and cooling flushes were extremely rare (particularly surprising where machines had clearly been sitting idle for some time).

              That said, I sampled a fantastic espresso in a busy cafe early one morning in Milan (it even had a speckledly red crema - yum).

              I also found a fantastic cafe in Alba - where I stayed for 4 days, to drink Barolo of course - called Il Saluzzo. It was run by three young women who clearly had the knowledge. Milder roasts, tamper, and a busy cafe all led to consistently great coffee. It was packed with locals from dawn until dusk, clearly outpointing all the other local competition.

              Maybe the third wave is taking hold in Italy too?

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              • #22
                Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                Originally posted by slowdown link=1185414494/15#20 date=1193051789
                Ive just returned from a week in Italy.

                That said, I sampled a fantastic espresso in a busy cafe early one morning in Milan (it even had a speckledly red crema - yum).
                Just out of curiosity, was the cafe at the front of Corso Vittorio Emanuele shopping centre in the middle of the city?
                If so I think that was the one I mentioned in my earlier post. Simply exquisite coffee.

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                • #23
                  Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                  Certainly close to that amazing shopping arcade - it was about 50 - 100 metres south from La Scala - down Via Santa Margherita. Directly opposite Galleria Vittorio Immanuelle.

                  A constant parade of sharp looking types in well cut suits - as youd expect from the world epicentre of fashion.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                    The problem with the Italian culture is, they dont want to learn anything about coffee. They believe they are making the best coffee in the world and no one can match it. They look at the history and dont look at the future. The coffee standards are always going to be the same. You wont see any COE in Italy. When you think you are the best then there is no room for improvement. Countries like Japan, U.S, Australia, New Zealand, Scandanvian nations are wanting to learn and push the boundaries, thats what coffee is about. I know where i want to be drinking my coffee in the future.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                      Originally posted by AndyL link=1185414494/15#23 date=1193310190
                      The problem with the Italian culture is, they dont want to learn anything about coffee. They believe they are making the best coffee in the world and no one can match it. They look at the history and dont look at the future. The coffee standards are always going to be the same. You wont see any COE in Italy. When you think you are the best then there is no room for improvement. Countries like Japan, U.S, Australia, New Zealand, Scandanvian nations are wanting to learn and push the boundaries, thats what coffee is about. I know where i want to be drinking my coffee in the future.
                      Sounds a bit harsh Andy :-?,

                      I guess there is always the prospect that a food item that is so culturally embedded can become generic in the way that it is produced but having said that, if the end product in Italy is so humdrum, why do the hardware manufacturers go to so much trouble to produce such exquisite machinery to extract the best the bean has to offer.... doesnt really add up to me Im afraid. That and also the fact that most of the worst coffees Ive been unfortunate enough to drink here in Australia have been pulled by Australian lads and lasses who dont seem to know better.

                      Im sure there are a few CS members of Italian extraction who will be happy to engage in debate about your opinion :....

                      Mal.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                        did someone mention italian extraction ...

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                        • #27
                          Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                          Hey Mal

                          We arent talking about your every day coffee here. Of course your average milk bar cafe in Australia vs your Italian cafe i know who is going to win. Im talking about the thread. Can Italians make great coffee? I dont think you will see a world barista champ coming from Italy in a very very long time. I dont believe you will be tasting COE in Italy. Watching some of the best baristi in the world perform in front of me, I know Italy is a long long long long way from the standard i have seen. Most of the coffees sold on coffeesnobs you would rarely find in a Italian cafe. But many cafes in Australia are doing it. The heart and sole of coffee will be in Italy and I would never question that. Good coffee and great coffee can be made by anyone.
                          The Italian market is pushing amazing equipment. But thats not being driven by Italian customers. La Marzocca for example are one of the leaders in equipment, but they are going on what the world wants, not the Italian market. Speaking to some American engineers and coffee machine makers that worked with the Italians, they do respect the Italian manufacturers, but they were holding them back from doing something better. The world market is pushing for better coffee. The gap between great coffee and crap coffee is only going to get bigger.
                          Some might say Im harsh..... Im a lot more harder on myself. I havent made myself a great coffee in a long time. Great to me is a word i use very rarely. To achieve a great coffee for me, I check the roast dates for peaks, the forecast on the weather to understand how my coffee will perform and change, temperture on my machine, understand and study the blend to know its weakness and strengths, humidity in the air, roast color, smell, grind, always in the morning around 8am, clean machine, a good night sleep, if im drinking a milk based coffee i look at how long the milk froths, right espresso for the milk and so much more.
                          I do get a little sick of customers telling me how great the coffee was in Italy. Especially when its all based on the experience not the coffee.

                          Great topic.

                          Andrew

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                          • #28
                            Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                            ohh yeah also our customers suck, which in turn makes our coffee suck!! I would love to make coffee for only Italians. Working in an Italian cafe would be soooooo easy. Short black after short black and the occasional milk drink in the morning. No more skinny, soy, hot, chai and 10 large takeaway coffees. Do that in my sleep.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                              Wow, was that a rant Andy? If not, Id be interested to hear you when you are really wound up (whoa, hold the skinny decaf)! Still, I suspect your points are probably valid.

                              That said, we watched a really excellent Australian vid last night about Italian migrants in Australia, called Loves Brother (2004). One of the stars of the film is a late 1950s Gaggia lever coffee machine. I highly recommend this film - it is just great.

                              Anyway, it got me thinking about how much we owe the Italians for coffee. And also, how for Italians coffee is part of something bigger - la dolce vita!

                              Anyway, I think there is hope for Italy and great coffee. After all, great coffee is about the beauty of the bean, its flamboyance, the style, the taste, the passion. I think the Italians know lots about all these things. These things are second nature to them.  And that must surely lead them on to greater coffee?

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                              • #30
                                Re: Can Italians make great coffee?

                                I agree with you slowdown, and would just like to add for AndyL, that I believe a "great cofffee" transcends what is in the cup. Sure, that is critical, but I would like to add that the experience is very important.

                                I was once fortunate enough to sit in the square on the Isle of Capri, enjoying a coffee and watching people go by; a stop at a service station produced an espresso where the attendant would have rivalled the flair of a competitor at a world championship; the waiter at a hotel in Florence brought out an espresso for me at breakfast and with a wink, said he had made it a triple for me.

                                Sometimes, I have the pleasure of making myself a cup of coffee and sitting outside in a nice area of our backyard, and a sip of my coffee can immediately take me back to those places.

                                All of these coffees were at least technically above average, but to my mind they were great coffees and will live in my memory until the day I die (or till the onset of dementia). Next time you are with a group of people ask them if they recall having had a great coffee and I bet that they will relate it to an experience!

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