Announcement

**javabeen** · 30 March 2008, 10:20 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne wa

Um, just wondering, do others descale their machines RE this post?

TC · 30 March 2008, 10:40 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne wa

Hi Java,

I think the Brita jug is a good idea.

I have seen a couple of Melbourne based Giotti (run on tap water) up to 4 years old in the last 6 months- showing signs of quite severe scale.

General consensus is that the Brita cartridges will remove some Calcium- but you will probably still need to descale- perhaps only every 2-3 years for Melbourne if you use a jug.

I change my Brita cartridges every 8 weeks.

On a positive note, Bombora supplies are water wizards and they have a terrific triple action descaler which was previously only available as a solution or in large commercial quantities as a powder.

Bombora CEO Bernard Peters (after a nudge from me) has consulted with his chemist and has released a 100g domestic sized pack good for 2-4 descales depending on the size of your boiler. Youd use 25g for a smaller HX boiler and perhaps 50g for a biggie like a Domobar Super.

Pricing is attractive, and it works much better than straight citric acid which can shift calcium plaques which then block up other machine components. A good descaler uses other compounds to dissolve big bits

Bombora can also assist with great filtration options specifically for coffee

Chris

**Thundergod** · 30 March 2008, 11:36 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne wa

How does Sydney water compare to Melbournes.
Ive only used Brita water in my Expobar.
How long before a descale is required?

**JavaB** · 31 March 2008, 12:14 AM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne wa

Thundergod,

Sydneys water is 2-3 times higher in Calcium than Melbourne (depending on the area in Sydney)- so probably 2-4 weeks between changes of Brita filter....

However here in Perth ours is 8 times worse than Melbourne.... so you would need to change your filter every week! $$$$$$$$$$

So if you have been changing the filter that often you should be no worse off than your Melbourne colleagues as far as descaling.... but if the Brita filter hasnt been changed as often then more frequent descaling would be required.

**bombora** · 31 March 2008, 08:56 AM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne wa

HI ALL!

just thought i would jump in with some commentary/feedback.

As a rule all machines will need to be descaled ...eventually. Water filtration has a couple effects depending on what type you use......but ultimately just slows down the inevitable build of scale. The type of filter you use will dictate how long that delay is. Besides basic filtration, the Brita jug filter does use a certain amount of softening resin..... whilst softening resin is quite effective at reducing Total hardness(which develops into scale) - ideally it may only last 5 - 6 litres(in Melbourne) or as Java B suggested maybe only 1 litre or less in WA before it needs changing(that gets expensive)......although Melbourne water is generally softer than Sydney.....we are still seeing big variances in Water Hardness everywhere depending on
1.which dam the water comes from
2. the levels of that dam &
3. where you are situated on the water line

....so we have seen some areas in Melbourne which typically are quite soft (less than 40ppm) giving out readings of 160ppm and some ridiculous levels of sediment to go along with it.

You can test your water using a Total Hardness testing strips...they are a cheap and quick way of checking your total hardness.(we have them or most aquarium shops)...it needs to be for Total Hardness..which strictly measures calcium & magnesium....dont use a TDS meter/strips)....for any results under 160 ppm we suggest a triple action scale inhibitor filter....besides offering sediment & chemical reduction, they use hexametaphosphate which coats the calcium and magnesium irons to prevent bonding as well as coating your boiler and components with a thin slippery layer to further inhibit scale development....typically these type of filters would last 12 months as the hexametaphosphate (in crystal form)breaks down after that time. You will see this product being used in most food service applications in Sydney, Melbourne & Brisbane.......it is a safe food grade product. For readings over160ppm the scale inhibtors dont tend to be as effective ie too much Calcium and magnesium ions running through for it to work effectively ....here we suggest softening(or deionising resin). This technique is superior and works using an ion exchange process.... for home use you can get a 3 stage drop in filter that would offer anywhere between 100 & 400 litres of softening...depending on your test resuts(feel free to email me direct with results for advice on capacity)...for commercial apps we offer bigger capacity versions of the same thing.

If you have an existing water filter system( undersink..or even an icemaker fridge)..you can easily add on an additional filter(and housing) for less than $90 (filter replacement about $ 49) - so it should work out a much cheaper than using brita jug filters over a year...if you dont have a system not you can get a bench top system from just under $100 or plumbed in system for $200 - 300....can be a good investment.

All that aside.....if you use the right filter based on your water quality you should only have to descale every 2 - 3 years as Chris suggested......

cheers

Bernard

**javabeen** · 31 March 2008, 11:25 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne wa

Thats great info guys.

I just checked the Brita filters and they stated they had Ion Exchange filtration to reduce carbonate hardness.

So my plan is to keep using the filters, replace them every 8 weeks, and get some descaler. I use to use citric acid in my gaggia but it didnt seem to work after my mate pulled it apart and showed me its insides. It contained a layer of white scale build up around the whole boiler! So I want to get the most from my VBM Domobar Levetta and look afer it.

Will get a water hardness kit and report back so others CSers in the Bentleigh area get an idea of the hardness.

Cheers
Javabeen.

**NewToEspresso** · 1 April 2008, 03:56 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne wa

I did my first ever descale of the silvia since i got it 8 months ago now (??) and descaled the Gaggia twice so far. I was told when I pump in the descaling solution that after i flush it out, Id get residues coming and to continue pumping out the water until i dont see any "scale" coming out. Ive been using the Brita jug as well (Im in Melbourne), but from the start when I pump the descaler in and then pump it out, I hardly get anything else come out apart from the clear solution so I guess there wasnt very much (if any) scale buildup at all in 8 months.
Id be keeping my eye out on this thread to see what the conclusion is...

**bombora** · 2 April 2008, 05:06 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne wa

sounds like you are well on top of it........using the jug and 8 months in on Melbourne water...i wouldnt expect to see anything coming out.........once a year should be plenty if you are changing your filters routinely

cheers

Bernard

**Epic76** · 7 April 2009, 01:21 AM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne water?

Bernard,
Can I ask what youd suggest for the following water?.....

Drinking Water Quality for the Period October 2007 - September 2008
Figures: Minimum Maximum Average

pH at 25 oC pH 6.5 9.4 8.0
Colour Hazen unit < 3 5 < 3
Turbidity NTU < 0.1 3.0 0.2
Conductivity at 25 oC µS/cm 46 208 121
Temperature oC 11.2 32.2 23.8
Total alkalinity (as CaCO3) mg/L 6 30 18
Total hardness (as CaCO3) mg/L < 5 58 31
Calcium mg/L 0.9 17 11
Magnesium mg/L 0.31 1.9 1.2
Chloride mg/L < 5 17 9
Sulphate mg/L < 5 19 12
Ortho-phosphates (as PO4) mg/L < 0.01 0.06 < 0.01
Iron mg/L < 0.01 0.27 < 0.01
Aluminium mg/L < 0.01 0.10 0.02
Silica (as SiO) mg/L 5.3 16 11
(Source: suppliers self analysis)

From another source: "water is moderately soft, the total hardness ranging from 6 to 140 milligrams per litre (mg/l) as calcium carbonate (CaCO3), with a territory average of 49 mg/l. Scale creating hardness is about half acid soluble calcium carbonate and the other half acid insoluble calcium sulphate."

What may not be revealed is the at the tap state of the water which often has rust and other particulate matter from poor distribution systems (unlined galvinized pipes).

Thanking you in advance

Epic76

**bombora** · 7 April 2009, 07:06 AM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne water?

Thanks for the question

Back to you shortly, out of the office most of the day, will have a repsonse for you later today

cheers

**A_M** · 7 April 2009, 08:29 AM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne water?

Originally posted by 54595B54594457360 link=1205410888/10#10 date=1239051976

Thanks for the question

Back to you shortly, out of the office most of the day, will have a repsonse for you later today

cheers

This is what I like about Sponsors etc...

I quick post and you and others know that an expert in the field has a comment / advice... However rather than leave you hanging or thinking their not even looking at the posts..

You get a quick Ack and have something to look forward to..

Like ya style Bombora

**Epic76** · 7 April 2009, 06:25 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne water?

Bombora Esq: Thank you

AM: Agreed!

**A_M** · 7 April 2009, 06:49 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne water?

Originally posted by 487D646E3A3B0D0 link=1205410888/12#12 date=1239092753

Bombora Esq: Thank you

AM: Agreed!

In vino veritas

I would also guess that after a hard day, the detailed response to you question(s) may take a little extra time :-)

As to your other comment... In vino veritas (In wine there is truth (People say what they really mean when theyre drunk))

Then a few others would follow in the general conversation;

Re vera, potas bene.

Ridentem dicere verum quid vetat.

Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?

Da mihi sis cerevisiam dilutam.

Cave cibum, valde malus est.

Mihi ignosce. Cum homine de cane debeo congredi.

Prehende uxorem meam, sis!

Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!

Later all, the last line says it ALL ;D

**Epic76** · 7 April 2009, 08:31 PM

Re: Need to descale if using filtered Melbourne water?

Youre not defining a quoters own quote are you?