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  • #16
    Re: beginners problems

    Originally posted by fix link=1206874120/0#14 date=1207344863
    I
    f coffee is made mechanically, just grind however, stuff it in a basket and push some water through.... it wont be even decent coffee.... This is what the super automatic machines do...

    But for quality coffee.... you need passion and put in the effort required - and you will be rewarded.
    your right it needs passion
    some of the super automatics can make as good a short black as a commercial machine
    it depends on the passion and knowhow of the person who sets up the machine
    the passion of the person who cleans the machine
    and the passion of the person who services the machine

    a lot of the crap put on automatics is due to the machine not being set up correctly, (taken out of the box and still on factory test settings) largely due to lack of knowledge, passion or care

    graham
    Bring on the day when a superauto can make a great coffee! Its only a matter of time.

    George Sebados wrote an article on CG about a year ago which argued the pros of a superauto in a cafe environment. What struck me was his assertion that certain super-auto machines can make espresso as good as he could make on any standard commercial machine, but with a consistency far superior to a barista behind a machine. It seems that most Italian companies are now focussing heavily on developing the super-auto, rather than traditional machines. This may mean that the standard automatic and semiautomatic may go the way of polaroid film. For those who love the art of making coffee, this may not be a great thing, but to those wanting decent coffee from a commercial venture, this seems like a good way to go.


    Comment


    • #17
      Re: beginners problems

      What struck me was his assertion that certain super-auto machines can make espresso as good as he could make on any standard commercial machine

      super automatics have had a bad rap in Australia
      lets separate domestic and most vending machines from this category
      domestic get hit because the user generally buys from a retailer harv nor or the likes, takes machine homes, takes out of box puts coffee in and presto 9 times out of 10 shit coffee,
      machine is still at factory specs

      most vending operatots wouldnt know a good espresso if it hit them in the face. its about using least product for the highest monetary gain. or the common adage no one has complained.
      this isnt always there fault but of the solictor or financial consultant that suggested buying them

      open most machines up and there is two to three weeks supply in them, this is so they dont have to visit them as often. ie make more money.
      doesnt work

      when most people think superautomatic they think Mccas
      in most instances it doesnt matter how well you set up the machine, how good the shots are, if the cleaning regime doesnt get done or doesnt get done properly then you get out yuk
      but it is a consistent yuk, because it doesnt matter who pushes the button it delivers the same product.

      in some instances the staff using and cleaning super autos cant be blamed, because all they are doing is following the directions of the coffee company or the machine supplier they got the machine from

      this also relates to conventional handle machines, the training is only as good as the trainer and the accuracy of the info that is given

      in australia we have problems with machines that most of the world dont have, and it is all caused through lack of cleaning and maintenace

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: beginners problems

        I would have to disagree that superautos can make as good a cup as can be made on the traditional machines.

        While a high end superauto can make a cup of joe equal to what youll find at places such as StarChar or the average corner cafe and hence acceptable to most of the brainwashed average schmoes out there, that does not mean that they can make a great cuppa. And isnt that what we as Snobs are after? Maybe some day they will be able to, but from what Ive seen that day is still a ways off.

        A couple years back I had the pleasure of being able to play with a new Cimbali M52 here at home. At the time this was Cimbalis top of the line Superauto (arguably the best Superauto available in the world at the time) and sold for $USD25,000. At the same time I had my Cimbali M28 2-group, paired with a Super Jolly with almost new burrs, set up and so could do head to head comparisons of what each machine could produce.

        In short the Superauto simply couldnt produce that great cuppa.

        After weeks of playing with the machine (making only espressos) it was pretty easy to get it dialed in to consistently produce a good cuppa (which required constant tweaking of the machine through-out the day the same as with a traditional machine). The machine provided an incredible level of control of the entire brewing process, right down to a tenth of a degree F control over the temp of the brewing chamber. There was no problem with controlling the various factors behind the making of a good brew. But no matter how you played with all the various factors the end result just never had all the outstanding mouthfeel and flavors compared to what the M28 produced with the identical beans.

        In the end I put the reason down to the espressos long journey through the thin tube leading from the brew chamber to the dispensing point. Up until that point there was absolutely no reason the machine shouldnt be producing a cup as good as anything made anywhere and potentially (due to the incredible level of control) even better. Where the system falls down is when it forces the extracted espresso through that thin tube. The effort of all the thousands of dollars of high-end equipment in front of there is ruined by a ten cent part.

        From what I have seen all of the superautos have this same desigh/mechanism. Ergo they will all have the same problem/shortcoming.

        Until such a time as manufacturers eliminate this design and come up with a machine that brews directly into the cup superautos will never be capable of producing the great cuppas that traditional machines with a nut on the end of the portafilter can.


        Java "My personal opinion anyways " phile
        Toys! I must have new toys!!!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: beginners problems

          This is going OT so maybe should be split off into its own thread.

          Science based on a sample of 1 is inherintly flawed. Axiom: La Cimbali make the best superauto. Unsubstantiated conclusion: The design of the coffee dispenser caused the problem.

          Keeping an open mind, when one of the people responsible for a major technique initiative (up dosing) which arguably won Paul Basset the WBC title mentions a superauto is capable of shots equalling his best effort on a commercial semi-auto, then its probably worth listening and maybe investigating and finding out yourself. Certainly a contentious issue given the current dogma.

          There is a lot of dogma in the coffee industry and it can probably be traced to a handful of people with an opinion. Probably a good thing for La Marzocco and Synesso sales.

          Cheers,

          Mark.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: beginners problems

            Sorry I am late to this.

            Re: the muddy puck issue.

            Your first problem is your plastic tamper. If you cannot afford to get a Pullman Tamper at this time, get a heavy stainless steel one.

            Until you you get something of the quality of the Pullman, you will have to double tamp".Basically you half fill your basket, tamp, fill the remainder of the basket and tamp again.

            You will also need to up dose until you find the right amount of coffee that once tamped, makes it difficult for the portafilter to lock into the machine. This ensures the coffee is touching the screw. I weigh my coffee before I grind it, and my Classic takes about 20 -22 grams of beans depending on the size of the bean.

            The other issue is your grinder. I hate to tell you this, but the sunbeam grinder isnt really up to the demands of a Gaggia Classic. Gaggia Classics are pretty well a home version of a professional espresso machine and it can be a bit temperamental at times, as you are finding. I would recommend upgrading to a Gaggia MDF or Iberital Challenge grinder minimum. They are much less messy, grind cosistantly and are heavy duty grinders that will last for many years.

            To get the best out of your machine will take a lot of practice, a lot of reading and asking questions and some patience. It doesnt take long to achieve.

            Feel free to pm me if you have any questions as I have had my gaggia a few years now and get outstanding coffee most of the time. Sometimes I do stuff up.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: beginners problems

              Originally posted by Sparky link=1206874120/15#18 date=1207439115
              This is going OT so maybe should be split off into its own thread.


              Mark.
              Maybe, maybe not.....

              Many new potential coffee machine purchasers will consider a superautomatic.... After all you can just walk up to it and produce a good - maybe even great coffee..... well NO YOU CANT!!!!

              Even if a Superautomatic can produce a coffee equal to a skilled barista on a quality manual (which I doubt given the current state of play in this area) - they need the same human input as is required in the manual process....

              The grind size can be varied, the dose can be varied, the freshly roasted beans can be stored outside of the hot open hopper in the machine etc... etc... just like a manual machine.... and these need to be done if you want quality coffee....

              A superauto is like an automatic car.... it can be driven manually.... but rarely, if ever, is - because people want the convenience. Me, I FAR prefer manuals.... I can see the lights changing ahead.... and changing to a lower gear will provide engine braking and better acceleration if the lights change again as I get there. My brain is smarter than the auto box and can provide for a greater range of inputs - resulting is a "better" output. This, to a large extent, can be done with an auto as well - but few bother!!

              With a superauto machines most users use it in "set and forget" mode - because that is why they purchased it.... with disappointing results.. They could use it like a manual machine and to get good results they need to - but that will remove most of the perceived advantages of owning such a machine.

              Coffee making is an art, it is all about passion for that art..... a great work of art cant be made with a "paint by numbers" canvas and a limited palate of premixed paint (how a superauto is normally used) -

              But give it to a real artist who wont slavishly follow the lines on the canvas, will blend the paints to obtain better effects and has a passion for what he/she is doing and the artwork can be quite good... maybe even great!!

              Automation alone can not and will not work with a process which is an art and requires the involvement (passion) of the artist to get fantastic results.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: beginners problems

                Originally posted by JavaB link=1206874120/15#20 date=1207443238
                Originally posted by Sparky link=1206874120/15#18 date=1207439115
                This is going OT so maybe should be split off into its own thread.


                Mark.
                Many new potential coffee machine purchasers will consider a superautomatic.... After all you can just walk up to it and produce a good - maybe even great coffee..... well NO YOU CANT!!!!
                .
                I never said you could.


                Originally posted by JavaB link=1206874120/15#20 date=1207443238
                Even if a Superautomatic can produce a coffee equal to a skilled barista on a quality manual (which I doubt given the current state of play in this area) - they need the same human input as is required in the manual process....
                .
                How can you know the current state of play unless you are constantly re-evaluating each machine as new models are introduced? This is the problem with the web, everyone has an opinion. I didnt state my opinion, just pointed to an article written by arguably one of Australias most respected coffee innovators who should have some credibility above and beyond what most have to offer.

                Originally posted by JavaB link=1206874120/15#20 date=1207443238
                Coffee making is an art, it is all about passion for that art..... a great work of art cant be made with a "paint by numbers" canvas and a limited palate of premixed paint (how a superauto is normally used) -

                But give it to a real artist who wont slavishly follow the lines on the canvas, will blend the paints to obtain better effects and has a passion for what he/she is doing and the artwork can be quite good... maybe even great!!

                Automation alone can not and will not work with a process which is an art and requires the involvement (passion) of the artist to get fantastic results.
                I prefer to think about it as a problem in optimally extracting the essence of the bean into the cup. If you think along those lines, then there is a role for super-automatics and research into making a better one.

                The bottom line is that a qualified barista is still required to set up the machine each day and to ensure its working at some optimal point.

                I agree that superautos are most likely not the best solution for home users due to all the problems elucidated above. Either barista or technical skill has to enter at some level.

                Try to keep an open mind is all I really have to say on this matter.

                Cheers,

                Mark.


                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: beginners problems

                  Originally posted by Sparky link=1206874120/15#18 date=1207439115
                  Science based on a sample of 1 is inherintly flawed. Axiom: La Cimbali make the best superauto. Unsubstantiated conclusion: The design of the coffee dispenser caused the problem.
                  I never stated that Cimbali makes the best superauto. I stated that it could be argued that it does. Which one is best is determined by many factors, which will vary from one person to the next.

                  My conclusion that it is the post brewing part of the system that is the problem is hardly unsubstantiated. I had the M52 for many months and I really wanted it to work. I owned the machine and hence could do what-ever I wanted to it. Including digging into it and tearing it all apart to see what makes it tick. Which I happily did.

                  I put many kilos of beans through it and looked in detail at every component of it and its operation. I ignored the milk side of things and concentrated purely on the espresso side as there was no sense in fiddling with the milk side of things until the espresso side was up too snuff.

                  Every component on the espresso side was looked at in detail and every one of them was found to be of high quality with nothing in their design or functioning that would lead to a poor quality extraction. The grind, tamping pressure, brewing pressure, brew water temp, and the temp of the brewing chamber itself were all excellent and fully repeatable shot after shot to a degree that would be hard for even the best barista using top notch equipment to match.

                  The inevitable conclusion was that there was absolutely no reason why it couldnt produce every bit as good an extraction as seen on the non-superautos. The problem was clearly not with the brewing side of things. The only thing left that could potentially be the problem was what happened to the espresso after it was brewed.

                  After the espresso is brewed it is forced through a plastic tube that is roughly half a meter long and 1mm in diameter to the dispensing assembly. The espresso is then ejected into a cylinder (2cm? dia) where it hits the opposite side of the cylinder splattering everywhere before dripping down into the cup. This can hardly help but have an effect on the delicate crema as well as the espresso itself due to all the additional aeration it undergoes. The crema from these machines acts very much like the crema achieved by the low end machines using their crema enhancing devices, i.e. it quickly dissipates/disappears. With the end result of a cup that tastes flat when compared to the same bean when brewed in a semi-auto. While the average joe may not taste a difference, especially in a milk based drink, the difference to me as an espresso was plain as day. It didnt even come close to what the M28 produced, no matter how the variables were tweaked.

                  Unfortunately due to the design of the M52 I couldnt eliminate the tube from the equation and hence could not incontrovertibly prove that it was the tube/dispensing system that was at fault. Breaking the design down into its component parts however leaves no doubt in my mind that the tube/dispensing system was what was at fault due to the physical changes that the espresso undergoes from passing through it.

                  Seeing as every superauto that I have ever seen uses this same design (and displays the same crema behavior) it is then a logical conclusion that they suffer from the same short comings to one degree or another.

                  Keeping an open mind, when one of the people responsible for a major technique initiative (up dosing) which arguably won Paul Basset the WBC title mentions a superauto is capable of shots equalling his best effort on a commercial semi-auto...
                  I had a very open mind. I bought the M52 with the full intent of tweaking it so that it would produce the same great pours I was seeing from my M28 at which point it would become my main machine.

                  ...then its probably worth listening and maybe investigating and finding out yourself.
                  Which is exactly what I did. I ignored all the bad press the superautos were getting and bought one of the best (if not the best) superautos in the world and then tweaked it and experimented with it for months before coming to the above conclusions.

                  Those who know me know that I rarely take the commonly accepted word/view on a subject at face value no matter who claims it to be true, let alone the word of one individual. How much weight do you give the word of someone who is commenting about a product in an industry that he is getting paid by? An industry in fact that he is now the poster boy for? Especially when that same person accepted payment to tie their name to a product that proved to be a disaster from both the performance and design side? Hardly someone who could be considered to be an impartial person from my perspective. While their view should be listened too it hardly means that it should automatically be considered to stand above all others as The Truth.

                  I dont care if God himself came down and told me something. My response would be the same as if anyone else has said it. Prove it!

                  I bought the M52 with the full intention of proving all the superauto naysayers wrong. To show that a properly designed, built, and operated superauto could in fact produce as good a cup as any other machine. When all was said and done however I ended up verifying the popular view instead of disproving it.


                  Java "Show me!" phile
                  Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: beginners problems

                    Originally posted by Javaphile link=1206874120/15#22 date=1207460022
                    I dont care if God himself came down and told me something. My response would be the same as if anyone else has said it. Prove it!
                    "Youre a better man than I am, Gunga Din!"

                    Whilst as an auditor I usually go by "say what you do, do what you say then prove it", one of my tag lines used to be "In God we trust, everyone else we check".
                    ;D

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: beginners problems

                      Originally posted by Sparky link=1206874120/15#21 date=1207449017
                      I didnt state my opinion, just pointed to an article written by arguably one of Australias most respected coffee innovators who should have some credibility above and beyond what most have to offer.
                      Actually you didnt point us to any such article. You made a statement that you attributed to a Big Name but with nothing to verify or back up the comment.

                      Even if we assume the Big Name did in fact make the comment, with-out knowing the context it was made in the comment is meaningless. Was the comparison done between a top of the line superauto and an entry level semi-auto? Was the test done with the units side by side or days or weeks apart? Is the person making the statement known for their cupping/tasting ability? If the Big Name has only average tastebuds then any conclusion they reach using them is meaningless to anyone with better than average tasting ability.

                      Even if we take the statement at face value was the superauto produced or marketed by a company the Big Name is receiving monies from or wooing for a possible future contract? Was the statement made to a publisher who receives monies from the manufacturer of the superauto?

                      Theres all kinds of questions that must be answered before one can determine just how much credence to give to someones statement. Context is everything.

                      Arent you in fact doing exactly what you warn against a few sentences later?

                      i.e.
                      Originally posted by Sparky link=1206874120/15#18 date=1207439115
                      There is a lot of dogma in the coffee industry and it can probably be traced to a handful of people with an opinion. Probably a good thing for La Marzocco and Synesso sales.
                      My opinions of superautos are based on my personal experience, not on what someone said, or was purported to say, whether it be a Big Name or someone nobody has ever heard of.

                      If there is in fact a superauto out there that can produce as good a cup as a world class barista using high end equipment Id love to know about it. Until such a time as that can be proven to me though Ill stand by my current opinion of them.


                      Java "Show me the money!" phile
                      Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: beginners problems

                        I was a bit cautious of providing a link, as it is from a different forum, but here goes. If this is against forum rules then delete the link http://www.coffeegeek.com/opinions/g...dos/12-27-2006 and google "Is this the end of the Barista".

                        Heres an interesting paragraph: "In July 2005, I was privileged to be one of the first individuals to trial a new style "super automatic" espresso machine with several twists. It was price competitive to most two-group semi-automatics, with an independent boiler for steaming and independent settings for dosing, tamp pressure, and length of extraction. It was in some ways a "smart" machine, informing the operator of changes required to meet the optimum extraction. And very surprisingly, it only had one moving part, a chassis which allowed for a quick change - less than a minute! I ended up using this machine to extract espressos when evaluating my roasted coffees. It offered the most consistent extraction of the highest standard. The only skill required by the operator was knowledge of the characteristics of the machine."

                        Theres more and it makes very interesting reading.

                        The machine is not a La Cimbali!

                        The statement that "all superautos are incapable of making exceptional espresso" is easy to falsify: You only need ONE machine that is the exception to prove this wrong.
                        On the contrary, this statement is extremely hard to prove because you need to test every superauto using an expert operator, which is not easy to do.

                        The extrapolation from the use of a single machine to the claim that "all superautos are incapable of making exceptional espresso" requires a large number of assumptions about superautos and is easily falsified by finding ONE machine that is the exception.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: beginners problems

                          An interesting article Smokey and a some good observations of the industry but let me give my opinion on this quote from the article:

                          "It is my belief that what the bulk of consumers want out of a café is a consistently good cup of coffee with quick service and a degree of personality. Particularly in the mornings, these consumers are in a rush and do not care for the artistic nature and commitment of the barista. They care about the quality in the cup and the speed in which they get it. A good cup of espresso-based coffee everywhere will always beat a great cup of coffee in the odd few places every single time!"

                          Last year when I was working in North Sydney I tried most of the places making coffee and found one that was acceptable to me.
                          What I observed was that the places with the best positions for passing traffic had the longest queues.

                          I came to this conclusion after naively thinking that a long queue meant good coffee.
                          One place in particular I gave the best chance to by going at a quiet time.
                          I was hoping that if the barista could pump out coffees from all four groups without batting an eyelid then one extraction during a quiet period should get me something close to his best.

                          Dishwater!

                          So whilst I think a lot of the writers observations sound reasonable as you said you only need to find one exception.

                          Back to your discussion re the superautos.
                          In the article he goes on about a particular superauto that improved his clients business.
                          If it was so great why isnt this machine and the seperate steaming device replacing everyones machines until the hybrid device he pines for is invented?
                          Hes proved it works. The client was using the semi-auto only for steaming now, so the super auto plus the steaming device would take up no additional space.

                          He wrote "In the end, this process affects nearly all café owners and makes them amenable to trying anything which can cut costs whilst at the same time maintaining or exceeding existing standards. "
                          If this is true, again why hasnt this setup become the norm?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: beginners problems

                            An article like that should provoke discussion. Id love to know how good this machine is and Ive started a thread to see if ther is anyone out there in CS land the has any experience with this machine, especially since its supported by one of our site sponsors.

                            The first part of the article was about the machine and he made it quite clear that it prepared espresso as well as any barista so much so that he now uses one for testing his roasts. So I look at his credentials and find that hes a WBC judge and was one of the people responsible for updosing, which ultimately helped Paul Basset with a WBC title. Clearly this guy knows espresso. So what are his motives for writing this article? I dont know. But Im very intrigued and would love to see this machine in action, using good beans and run by someone who knows how to set it up.

                            As for why they are not universally adopted, I think that the industry is too complicated and the machine too secondary to most businesses. For businesses that strive to excellence in coffee, there is an entrenched dogma that really puts a couple of machines to the fore. I wonder how many businesses still get their machines and associated umbrellas and other paraphenalia thrown in with their coffee contract. Thats hardly conducive to rapid change.

                            One of the things that irks me is when I go to a top notch cafe running the latest FB80 GB5 or Cyncra and get an ordinary espresso, only to hear that I didnt go there at the right time, or get the right barista.

                            One things for sure. If I were to own a cafe, Id certainly look into this machine just to take out the barista variable and ensure consistency in supply (but only as long as the claim can be verified).

                            Cheers,

                            Smokey!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: beginners problems

                              I know a former NSW judge that now runs a cafe.
                              I tried drinking the coffee there but its not up to scratch.
                              He has a captive market and Im betting the two 4 group LMs tie him to the coffee hes using.
                              So commercial reality trumps quality coffee.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: beginners problems

                                Originally posted by Thundergod link=1206874120/15#26 date=1207478339
                                If this is true, again why hasnt this setup become the norm?
                                At least in part perhaps because despite the authors claims to the contrary ("It was price competitive to most two-group semi-automatics") the Azkoyen Spression does not cost the same as most 2-group semi-automatics. In point of fact it costs twice as much, $14k as opposed to $7k.

                                Another glaring error/misrepresentation in his article is: "And very surprisingly, it only had one moving part" The machine clearly has more than one moving part.

                                If he cant get such easily verifiable facts straight why should anything else he says be given any great credence? Especially when it is clearly his opinion that is being stated with no backing of any empirical evidence at all, just his say-so. To me it all reads as an economically driven article aimed at/about the mainstream market and written as advertising for his consultancy services.


                                Java "Another opinion" phile
                                Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                                Comment

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