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  • #16
    Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

    Originally posted by Talk_Coffee link=1209725970/0#1 date=1209726074
    RO water kills espresso machines[/highlight]. Its as simple as that.
    Is this just something youve heard, or is it actual proven fact? Ive read so many "old wives tales" and myths, about coffee (as well as on many other subjects) that people assume to be true just because its been repeated so often. Is there any hard evidence that this is in fact correct? Im not saying youre wrong, its just that it becomes very difficult to tell fact from fiction when you read so much conflicting info on the internet. I have read websites that state RO water causes corrosion in coffee machines, but I have also read the opposite from a number of sources including the Sweet Marias website:

    "What type of water? For the life of the machine, use RO or distilled water..."

    and

    "Certainly, RO or soft water will make a boiler last longer."


    So who is right?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

      Originally posted by Bill link=1209725970/15#15 date=1209825539
      Is this just something youve heard, or is it actual proven fact?
      1. A long list of dead machines in WA in a couple of coffee companies I am in regular contact with.
      2. A ruined Giotto run on RO water and pretty much beyond repair
      3. Just last week a Makin machine in QLD with upturned toes- fortunately it has survived
      4. A further Giotto with premature controller board failure due to loads imposed by close to zero ion content in the water
      5. A long list of manufacturers who specifically advise against the use of RO water in espresso systems- unless its remineralised?

      Facts enough Id reckon? :-?

      Chris

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

        Originally posted by Talk_Coffee link=1209725970/15#16 date=1209826445
        Originally posted by Bill link=1209725970/15#15 date=1209825539
        Is this just something youve heard, or is it actual proven fact?
        1. A long list of dead machines in WA in a couple of coffee companies I am in regular contact with.
        2. A ruined Giotto run on RO water and pretty much beyond repair
        3. Just last week a Makin machine in QLD with upturned toes- fortunately it has survived
        4. A further Giotto with premature controller board failure due to loads imposed by close to zero ion content in the water
        5. A long list of manufacturers who specifically advise against the use of RO water in espresso systems- unless its remineralised?

        Facts enough Id reckon? :-?

        Chris
        So what sort of failures did the RO water cause in these machines? Is it issues related to boiler auto-fill sensors, or is it corrosion of the boiler, or something else?


        Originally posted by Talk_Coffee link=1209725970/15#16 date=1209826445
        5. A long list of manufacturers who specifically advise against the use of RO water in espresso systems- unless its remineralised?
        The reasons they give though is usually to do with the RO water not having enough ions for the water to conduct electricity, therefore the auto-fill sensor wont work. Is that the only reason though? That issue is totally irrelevant to the many other machines that dont use auto-fill sensors.


        thanks,
        Bill

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

          Originally posted by Bill link=1209725970/15#15 date=1209825539
          Originally posted by Talk_Coffee link=1209725970/0#1 date=1209726074
          RO water kills espresso machines[/highlight]. Its as simple as that.
          Is this just something youve heard, or is it actual proven fact? Ive read so many "old wives tales" and myths, about coffee (as well as on many other subjects) that people assume to be true just because its been repeated so often. Is there any hard evidence that this is in fact correct? Im not saying youre wrong, its just that it becomes very difficult to tell fact from fiction when you read so much conflicting info on the internet. I have read websites that state RO water causes corrosion in coffee machines, but I have also read the opposite from a number of sources including the Sweet Marias website:

          "What type of water? For the life of the machine, use RO or distilled water..."

          and

          "Certainly, RO or soft water will make a boiler last longer."


          So who is right?
          Google can be a friend, it can also lead you up a path, if you let it :-)

          If you want scientific and medical papers there are enough, that talk all about the good the bad and the ugly. However, most of what you will find is cleaver marketing aimed at getting your dollar, with very little interest in your health... just the health of their bank account. Some have good intentions, but are market driven.

          1: Simple facts: When we had rain tanks etc.... We boiled and drank straight from the tank. In most cases, no build up of scale in the pot or jug / kettle. Lots of slime and muck as well as bird shit may have made its way in, but thats what made it taste so good Was it pure NO...

          2: Lots of chlorine, and other gunk added in an effort to kill bugs etc. A week or two of boiling jugs today and you can start top see a scale build up..

          3: Now we have people going to the extreme with out truly understand why. We use water every day and lots of RO in pathology and forensic testing etc. But we would never drink the stuff...

          If you want to confirm for you own eyes... Get a base line done on your electrolytes. Then go and drink RO water ( No added powders / tabs etc) and then after a week, have another test....

          You should see what it does to our dialysis patients when some one gets it wrong... We depend on the RO water to be a good as we can get it, so that it draws the crap via a membrane (Osmosis) from the body... Just like a kidney : But what would Medical and Biomed Engineers know.... We help to save lives, NOT MAKE MONEY.

          Look at some of the new health drinks, RO and De Mineralised water.. PLUS all these added electrolytes... Doh.. Plus some sugar so that you feel good.

          Look at the Senior service staff and those with experience in the industry... While scale was a problem, it was able to be cleaned... RO water does the opposite, and that is why they are seeing more systems fail.

          Back on topic: RO water is NOT, repeat NOT, good for Coffee machines.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?


            The reasons they give though is usually to do with the RO water not having enough ions for the water to conduct electricity, therefore the auto-fill sensor wont work. Is that the only reason though? That issue is totally irrelevant to the many other machines that dont use auto-fill sensors.

            thanks,
            Bill
            Again, you are only looking at one symptom... but that in its self explains much, if you know the physics and chemistry behind it all.

            You might be thinking that it would be good to remove both the chemicals and the minerals and metals, but nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, these substances occur naturally not only in all the water of the earth but also in the make-up of our own bodies. There is no such thing as de-mineralized water, except in the cases where humans have removed them. If all the water of the earth contains minerals and our bodies are 70 percent of human bodies are made of this same water, then it makes absolutely no sense at all to employ the reverse osmosis water filter, which removes the very substances that need to be there.

            The best water filters remove chlorine, lead, cysts and VOCs but leave natural trace minerals such as magnesium, potassium and calcium, however RO systems remove the good stuff as well; if you want to drink it.

            You see, our bodys need the naturally occurring minerals found in water. Manganese helps regulate the metabolism of carbohydrates, fat and proteins, while iron is needed for healthy blood cells. Both calcium and manganese are essential for healthy bones. Minerals such as calcium, potassium and magnesium if eliminated by RO water for eg, force the body to draw from that which is stored in teeth and bones.

            The same for boilers and other equipment, the RO water will draw the minerals in an attempt to reach its natural state. Thus weakens the make up of the material etc, causing any number of problems.

            Enough said.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

              Very interesting reading AM,

              Always new there was a good reason to avoid this stuff, quite apart from it tasting pretty awful and making terrible coffee..... :P

              Thanks mate ,
              Mal.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                Some of those statements make very little sense for non-biological situations, so Ill try a more chemical explanation.

                Oxidation is an electrochemical reaction. For metal to be corroded it needs to be oxidised, which means that something needs to be reduced. Metals can reduce water to make hydrogen and a hydroxide. How effective this reaction is depends on the reduction potential of the metal. This is the reaction that takes place with aluminium and water to produce hydrogen (in the presence of NaOH, which dissolves the native oxide). So in the context of a coffee machine, if the machine is new with clean fresh surfaces and RO water is continually cycled through the machine, native surface oxides will be dissolved and the bare metal may be oxidised by reducing the water. This then a cycle that could cause corrosion. Of course there is dissolved oxygen, which usually helps things along.

                Simplified, this means the lack of dissolved ions in water causes protective oxides to dissolve from metal surfaces, which will then corrode according to chemical reactions between water, dissolved oxygen and the metal. Continued use of RO water will keep this process active until something gives...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                  Originally posted by AngerManagement link=1209725970/15#19 date=1209832624
                  You see, our bodys need the naturally occurring minerals found in water.
                  Yes, of course, however water is not the only source of these minerals in our diets. We get many of these minerals from our foods as well. Sodium, for example, is one that we generally are very high in, as we add it to all our foods. We get calcium from dairy, iron from red meat, etc, etc. Im certainly not suggesting anyone drink exclusively large quantities of RO water, therefore leaving them deficient in electrolytes. That indeed would be dangerous.


                  regards,
                  Bill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                    Originally posted by Sparky link=1209725970/15#21 date=1209855799
                    This is the reaction that takes place with aluminium and water to produce hydrogen (in the presence of NaOH, which dissolves the native oxide). So in the context of a coffee machine, if the machine is new with clean fresh surfaces and RO water is continually cycled through the machine, native surface oxides will be dissolved and the bare metal may be oxidised by reducing the water.
                    But there is no NaOH present in RO water, so therefore the native oxide wont dissolve??? (Im not saying it wont, Im just asking the question)

                    And brass and stainless steel (the materials that most espresso machines are made from) are much less susceptible to corrosion than aluminum.

                    Im still interested to hear from Chris to see if he has actually seen corrosion of brass components due to RO water. The machine failures he mentioned above sound like issues related to auto-fill sensors. But what about machines that dont have auto-fill sensors, like a Silvia for example?



                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                      Bill,

                      Its been MANY years since Ive done any chemistry but....

                      Pure water (especially ultra pure water) has a high affinity for carbon dioxide and absorbs this from the air.... forming carbonic acid. This is the stuff in cola which cleans pennies by dissolving off the oxide....... and the dissolved carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water.

                      Also I seem to remember that metallic carbonates (sodium, magnesium, calcium etc) have a buffering effect on the water and returns its pH to 7.0 or even higher (no longer acid and wont attack metals)...... so hardness in water will prevent (maybe just reduce) the corrosion....

                      It is also interesting that ultra pure water cant even be stored in glass containers as the water leaches material from the glass...... and I thought Hydrofluoric Acid was the only material which attacked glass..... however all acids attack metals

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                        Drinking/coffee water:
                        If you have rainwater available, then I would recommend a carbon block water filter to get rid of the solids. If you go as low as a 1/2 micron filter it will take out most of the bacteria as well. Running some chlorinated water through the filter periodically (or even some chlorine in the rain water) may be advisable if bacteria levels are high.
                        I doubt whether any carbon filter will take out dissolved minerals, so whatever level is in the rainwater should help protect your machine, and your health.
                        I have a small sink-top unit that plugs into the kitchen tap that Ive been using for many years with great success.
                        Greg

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                          Originally posted by JavaB link=1209725970/15#24 date=1209868252
                          Bill,

                          Its been MANY years since Ive done any chemistry but....

                          Pure water (especially ultra pure water) has a high affinity for carbon dioxide and absorbs this from the air.... forming carbonic acid. This is the stuff in cola which cleans pennies by dissolving off the oxide....... and the dissolved carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water.

                          Also I seem to remember that metallic carbonates (sodium, magnesium, calcium etc) have a buffering effect on the water and returns its pH to 7.0 or even higher (no longer acid and wont attack metals)...... so hardness in water will prevent (maybe just reduce) the corrosion....

                          It is also interesting that ultra pure water cant even be stored in glass containers as the water leaches material from the glass...... and I thought Hydrofluoric Acid was the only material which attacked glass..... however all acids attack metals

                          Thanks Robin. Thats the most reasonable explanation Ive seen on the topic thus far. Ive tended to see pure water as being fairly inert, however if CO2 has dissolved in it that makes the situation somewhat different. I admit I hadnt thought of that aspect.


                          regards,
                          Bill

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                            As usual in these discussions, I guess, it can get more confusing rather than less. I appreciate the many replies, but it would be nice to be able to be very specific about what were really talking about.

                            In my case, Im not drinking RO water, as the tap water in inner western Sydney (from Prospect Reservoir) has a nice level of minerals and tastes fine at this time of year. However, I have been using RO water in the boiler of my HX machine to stop scale. This discussion of corrosion really worries me, and I need to know what the risk really is to BRASS boilers and feed lines, and SS HX. I do not have any sensors, not does the water touch the brew path.

                            If this is really a problem, then should I be using tap water, softened water, filtered water, something mixed with RO? I dont want corrosion, but I dont want scale, either. It is difficult to descale this type of boiler, so I want to avoid it in the first place. There must be many in a similar situation to me.

                            Thanks again.
                            matt

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                              matt,

                              Perth water also (generally) tastes fine and is clear.... but VERY high in water hardness - the hardest in Australia!!

                              So I dont filter my water as such (but an under sink twin element filter - fibre for the solids and carbon for the heavy metals etc could be used if that is an issue......)

                              I pass the scheme water through a water softener and use that for the supply to the coffee machine.... boiler and groups. These significantly reduce water hardness.... but dont eliminate it entirely and are used by most if not all cafes here in Perth.

                              The boiler water is also turned over at a reasonable rate.... used for making teas, long blacks - even filling saucepans as I have 17L of boiling water "on tap"..... and if you dont "turn over" the water in the boiler it can develop off aromas which will exit via the steam wand into the milk you are texturing....

                              You can either use an ion exchange unit like mine (recharged every couple of months with salt) or a cartridge filter designed for water softening (thrown out when exhausted) or even a Brita jug if only small volumes of soft water are required.....

                              Some hardness in the water improves the taste of coffee and tea, protects the boiler and is good for your health.... so that, to me at least, is the way to go.

                              I personally wouldnt use distilled, demineralised or RO water in any part of my coffee machine......

                              One reason (which has been proved) for the massive increase in asthma is the desire to over purify everything.... believing that pure is best..... but we have an immune system for a reason and it needs to be exposed to nasties at an early age so that we can build up natural immunity whilst young..... so I dont remove these "nasties" from the drinking water.... preferring just to reduce the hardness.... and the scale build up.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: RO water bad for coffee machines?

                                Originally posted by Dolcimelo link=1209725970/15#27 date=1209871079
                                As usual in these discussions, I guess, it can get more confusing rather than less. I appreciate the many replies, but it would be nice to be able to be very specific about what were really talking about.

                                In my case, Im not drinking RO water, as the tap water in inner western Sydney (from Prospect Reservoir) has a nice level of minerals and tastes fine at this time of year. However, I have been using RO water in the boiler of my HX machine to stop scale. This discussion of corrosion really worries me, and I need to know what the risk really is to BRASS boilers and feed lines, and SS HX. I do not have any sensors, not does the water touch the brew path.

                                If this is really a problem, then should I be using tap water, softened water, filtered water, something mixed with RO? I dont want corrosion, but I dont want scale, either. It is difficult to descale this type of boiler, so I want to avoid it in the first place. There must be many in a similar situation to me.

                                Thanks again.
                                matt
                                If you want to read a very comprehensive article regarding water for espresso machines, regarding optimum water hardness and alkalinity for best taste vs low scale build-up, etc, then have a read of "Jim Schulmans Insanely Long Water FAQ" at http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html
                                That article is by far the most detailed that Ive ever seen on the subject. It doesnt mention much about corrosion though, except in regards to Gaggia boilers, which are made of aluminum. The article does have some discussion of RO water though:


                                The simplest and most common approach is to reintroduce proportion of charcoal filtered tap water downstream of the RO unit to raise hardness and alkalinity to a 30 mg/l range. This is still boiler safe, but greatly improves coffee taste over straight RO water.
                                There is no mention of RO water being bad for brass boilers though, only in regard to ensuring you add enough filtered tap water to it for the auto-fill sensor to work.


                                regards,
                                Bill

                                Comment

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