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  • #16
    Re: To help or to hinder...

    Of course roasters are suspicious, we are for a number of reasons.

    In the past 4 years in our small area of 250,000 people it has gone from 3 roasters to 10. Of all these roasters, very few have more knowledge than a 2 week course or less. Now this is a great starting point but it takes years to develope a product worthy of selling to another cafe, but the reality of business forces them to do so from day 1. I get responses from potential customers that they will not use local beans because local roasters have inferior product. Now this is true as a generalisation in our area, but we are an exception. I have fought for 4.5 years to have our coffee viewed as superior to commercial stuff instead of inferior. Now a few cowboys who own roasters are undoing all that work for me. Roasting seems to be the new black and good/successful roasters are concerned, and not just because its competition. In fact, all the above is actually forcing me to move on from this area and go back to the city.

    If you think you can learn to roast in a few weeks you are wrong. All you will be able to do is learn to operate a roaster. Learning to roast is a long journey that you must discover for yourself, with the aid of as many people who you respect as possible.

    Now, Im not one of these secretive types, and I think you are spot on when you say that the product is often nothing without marketing, but be very careful. I talk very openly with a number of roasters who would be direct competition. None of us would dream of copying each other because we all have our own style. I have also talked very openly about blends and profiles with members of the public, but their approach can often be the deciding factor in whether that conversation goes ahead or not. Remember, alot of us have spent years honing our craft and we did not always have somebody to go ask, it was trial and error and many late nights and throw away batches. This is what makes me the roaster I am today, the process not the product.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: To help or to hinder...

      Wow guys, I think most of you need to go back and actually understand what Im talking about - any discussion about IP in relation to blending is hilarious, even if anyone did want to copy a blend as Pioneer Roaster said it would be so incredibly stupid to even attempt.

      If any of you were discerning enough to understand what I am talking about you would realise that firstly Im not asking roasters to freely give me information about what they do, rather I am suggesting that roasters as a community should be aware that the control of their information is stifling our industry, essentially starving it of the very currency it depends on.

      Let it also be known that my approach with these coffee companies has been nothing but professional and that my experiences looking for work are not the issue here, Im addressing a larger dynamic of insulated resources forming a non-communicative community that lacks the fluidity it will benefit from in the future.

      Thundergod - anyone can see that your comparison between good coffee and fast food, (coke incidentally DO represent a dying method of doing business and are in fact exploitative by nature , not just in my view) shows us that your understanding of the transparency that COE and Fairtrade stand for is somewhat lacking. I have no doubt that these initiatives have been talked about in the utmost detail here and would not dare preach about their virtues however, it seems their ideology has not been applied to the roastery culture.

      cheers!    

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: To help or to hinder...

        Hey Nic,

        Im interested, have you approached these companies asking for employment with resume in hand, or have you been asking to watch over their shoulder?

        -ACog

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        • #19
          Re: To help or to hinder...

          Originally posted by 78656479606A67626862647E780B0 link=1243328146/16#16 date=1243384686
          Wow guys, I think most of you need to go back and actually understand what Im talking about - any discussion about IP in relation to blending is hilarious, even if anyone did want to copy a blend as Pioneer Roaster said it would be so incredibly stupid to even attempt.

          If any of you were discerning enough to understand what I am talking about you would realise that firstly Im not asking roasters to freely give me information about what they do, rather I am suggesting that roasters as a community should be aware that the control of their information is stifling our industry, essentially starving it of the very currency it depends on.

          Let it also be known that my approach with these coffee companies has been nothing but professional and that my experiences looking for work are not the issue here, Im addressing a larger dynamic of insulated resources forming a non-communicative community that lacks the fluidity it will benefit from in the future.

          Thundergod - anyone can see that your comparison between good coffee and fast food, (coke incidentally DO represent a dying method of doing business and are in fact exploitative by nature , not just in my view) shows us that your understanding of the transparency that COE and Fairtrade stand for is somewhat lacking. I have no doubt that these initiatives have been talked about in the utmost detail here and would not dare preach about their virtues however, it seems their ideology has not been applied to the roastery culture.

          cheers!     

          mmmm ... I havent even met you, only have read your words as posted here.   I think GregWormald has given you the best advice thus far:


          Originally posted by 4C796E6C5C6479666A676F0B0 link=1243328146/12#12 date=1243343607
          Hmmmm.

          Every time I go to a place that roasts coffee they are more than happy to show me around and give me hints. I often get invited to go in the back and watch a roast. Of course Im not after their recipes, just help on how to roast better and what they think is important.

          Approach is everything.

          Greg  

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: To help or to hinder...

            Originally posted by 4B56574A535954515B51574D4B380 link=1243328146/16#16 date=1243384686
            your understanding of the transparency that COE and Fairtrade stand for is somewhat lacking
            Sorry chief, but your understanding of etiquette is sadly lacking.

            You come here, not with an open mind but rather with a mindset that you want support with from the members of this site. When you dont get it you revert to childish attacks against the members.


            Originally posted by 4B56574A535954515B51574D4B380 link=1243328146/16#16 date=1243384686
            If any of you were discerning enough to understand what I am talking about you would realise that firstly Im not asking roasters to freely give me information about what they do, rather I am suggesting that roasters as a community should be aware that the control of their information is stifling our industry, essentially starving it of the very currency it depends on.
            Try going to a software company and asking them for the source code of their profit making software because not doing so "stifles the industry". Truly... you come here and imply we arent discerning enough to comprehend you? Get off your high horse, and be explicit in what you want from these roasters and we might be able to assist you. Keep on with your attitude and superiority complex and youll be ignored for being the troll that you act like.

            Grant


            Comment


            • #21
              Re: To help or to hinder...

              i agree with Jason at Pioneer Roasters... Di Bella Coffee is more than happy to show anyone around our facility... (even other roasters)... we are more than happy to answer questions.... talk about certain roasting procedures and coffee selecting processes...

              However.... there comes a time where certain questions will not be answered and certain things not discussed.... call this arogant... call this secretive... it is our right and others as business owners to choose what we want to give away or keep to ourselves...

              It is in noones best interest to be totally secrative or not to answer questions... but it is also in our companies best interest to not share too much information....

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: To help or to hinder...

                I have had experiences at both DiBella Coffee in Melbourne where I was allowed to watch a roast.

                I did the same cupping at Padre Coffee as Acog.

                I found both experiences fantastic, the attitudes of the roaster at DiBella and the Owner at Padre brilliant. They were very helpful and knowledgeable and open to sharing information.

                As Acog said, the owner of Padre showed us the beans, discussed the roast and his suppliers. Basically the only thing that he did not discuss was proportions. He even showed us some profiles.

                I think that in both cases, I got a perspective on how little I know and how much learning there was.

                Both roasters spoke of trial and error, various disasters and how difficult it was to get their blends right and maintain quality.

                I think at a superficial level roasters I have spoken to are pretty helpful and happy to talk, but the reality is, I doubt you would be able to "steal" secrets without working for a long period of time with the roaster. Trying to replicate their knowledge or blend would be pretty tough!

                I think the superficial knowledge would be easy to address, but I think to get the real detail, you would have to earn your stripes and really work in the industry. To be honest, I dont think this is different in any other organisation or semiproffesional job you would find.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: To help or to hinder...

                  Originally posted by 5B4F54535A5862594A585151584F3D0 link=1243328146/19#19 date=1243388683
                  Sorry chief, but your understanding of etiquette is sadly lacking
                  Originally posted by 43574C4B42407A41524049494057250 link=1243328146/19#19 date=1243388683
                  Try going to a software company and asking them for the source code of their profit making software because not doing so "stifles the industry". Truly... you come here and imply we arent discerning enough to comprehend you? Get off your high horse, and be explicit in what you want from these roasters and we might be able to assist you. Keep on with your attitude and superiority complex and youll be ignored for being the troll that you act like.
                  Google Chief.

                  Thanks for everyones feedback, I appreciate the honesty with which you have responded. Seeing as there have been only a few relevant responses here I might suggest a slowing in the one-up-man-ship occurring in favor of some solid argument. If anyone would like to directly respond to my suggestions maintaining even a small degree of the contextual integrity of what I am saying Id be interested to continue this conversation. If not please remember that you all (as DiBella correctly pointed out) have the right to completely ignore what I am merely suggesting to be the way of the future and continue as you have for the past 30 years. It seems sad to me though that such a potentially vibrant culture is so insecure that they cant have a constructive argument about their business strategies.

                  Nic 

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: To help or to hinder...

                    Originally posted by 564B4A574E44494C464C4A5056250 link=1243328146/22#22 date=1243391405
                    If anyone would like to directly respond to my suggestions maintaining even a small degree of the contextual integrity of what I am saying Id be interested to continue this conversation.  
                    I think a few have...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: To help or to hinder...

                      Nic,

                      couple of things BACK OFF from attacking posts and individuals! We are a group of enthusiasts here be it newbie to experienced to home roaster to 30 year veteran Pro Roasters. For a new member here your lack of etiquitte is staggering.

                      If you dont agree with someone then you dont have to take there advice onboard, a post by post attack is not required. I have found that in general advice here is given freely by all and to then find your own path taking on what you think best from it.

                      A discussion does not need to be an Argument with punch and counter punch ! If you were to approach anyone in person like you have approached some of the members here any wonder they were suspicious of you and your motives >

                      As a visitor to a few of the best roasteries around Melboure I have found them to be approachable and prepared to chat about what they are doing and why. Most were happy to show me around talk about Beans, Blends and even roast depths. Absolute specifics are irrelevent as if you ever finish up roasting commercially your roaster and bean selections will most likely be different anyway.

                      Approach is everything.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: To help or to hinder...

                        Originally posted by 756869746D676A6F656F697375060 link=1243328146/22#22 date=1243391405
                        If anyone would like to directly respond to my suggestions maintaining even a small degree of the contextual integrity of what I am saying Id be interested to continue this conversation.

                        As has been said above.... most responses are in the context of your initial post.....

                        The culture you speak about is right here - on CS where ideas and results are shared for all to see and read....

                        We, the members of CS (except for site sponsors), dont have "sheep stations" riding on coffee and the pursuit of coffee excellence. We arent a business.... there is no need for a competitive edge.

                        But a commercial roaster pays the bills, feeds the family etc by the income they derive from their (personal) knowledge and experience. Some do it better than others and thrive.... some cant quite get there and will struggle or go out of business as a result.

                        There is no way a successful business should help out a less successful competitor.... or even let Joe Blow know his "secrets" so he can roast the same at home.....

                        What you want is the old Communist System (which was a dismal failure) where all knowledge was owned by the state.... and all (in theory) could share equally in the knowledge - well it didnt work and has been replaced by a Western capitalist model which does work - complete with its trade secrets, market edge, competition between independent suppliers of all things and survival of the fittest - including the BUSINESS of roasting coffee beans!!!!

                        So what you want cant and wont happen in todays world..... and is unlikely in any future world as well......

                        Any business model which removes the competitive edge and financial reward for innovation and excellence is domed to failure. Without reward for excellence, there is no incentive to produce goods of increasing quality - ultimately resulting in mediocre offerings by all suppliers.... after all without some incentive (generally $$$$$) why do anything different to the norm!!!!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: To help or to hinder...

                          Originally posted by 514C4D5049434E4B414B4D5751220 link=1243328146/22#22 date=1243391405
                          If anyone would like to directly respond to my suggestions maintaining even a small degree of the contextual integrity of what I am saying Id be interested to continue this conversation.
                          Contextual integrity... ok let me ask exactly what it is that you want to know - hard to respond when you are being so vague.

                          1. How much do you buy for - and by association how much do you sell for?
                          2. Roasting parameters including blending types, guidelines, heats, times, temperature curves?
                          3. Where do you buy from? Both in context from a particular wholesaler, and by region/grower where applicable?
                          4. How do you market your product? In line with that how do your establish new business, or entice people away from their current provider?
                          5. How do you deal with council regulations once your roasting hits a certain number of kilos and pollution becomes an issue for local residents?

                          All of the above are specific questions, with specific answers which may or may not be answered by people who make money by dealing and overcoming these questions on a daily basis. Simply stating (parapharased) "no roasters will talk to me about what they do - why is that?" doesnt allow anyone to comment at a factual level. Assumptions are made about the information you require, how it is that youre dealing with the roasters and attempts to justify why they arent sharing their knowledge and experience with someone who is a potential competitor for their slice of the pie.

                          Specific, directed questions will net you a much more helpful response.

                          Grant

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: To help or to hinder...

                            Originally posted by 6E667E74690D0 link=1243328146/1#1 date=1243328374
                            Oh boy, here we go...........
                            Hehehe. A newbie comes in swinging!

                            The only pro roaster I have come across almost dragged me by the ear to show me what he was doing after I showed a little interest!
                            I am guessing that it is your approach?

                            Any way I think that you should checkout other sources of info. Roast magazine would be good start.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: To help or to hinder...


                              Hi snorkalicious,

                              If I understand correctly, you are promoting the philosophy of communism and denigrating pro-roasters.

                              If so, there are some fundamental problems with your argument.

                              Communism, and in this context I mean an ideology of common ownership and control of the means of production and ownership (inclduing intellectual property), is a wonderful concept. As wonderful as it may be, it doesnt work. Human nature is such that as societies form and develop, capitalism is preferred.

                              Secondly, the responses youve received from the forum, be it from general members or roasters, have demonstrated that your perception of unreasonable secrecy are mistaken.

                              If Ive mistaken your context, then the other scenario that comes to mind is that you would like to visit my home for the first time and rummage through my undies drawer. It aint going to happen! ;D

                              Ill add my support to what Jason and Phil have already said. In addition, there have been several opportunities for CSers to watch a roast and learn more about commercial roasting here at cuppacoffee.

                              Cheers!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: To help or to hinder...

                                Originally posted by 3C21203D242E23262C26203A3C4F0 link=1243328146/22#22 date=1243391405
                                It seems sad to me though that such a potentially vibrant culture is so insecure that they cant have a constructive argument about their business strategies.

                                Nic  
                                The WWW is doing a good job at sharing ideas


                                I need to say from the outset that it takes more than a roast profile to get a great flavour in the cup
                                The most important part of an individual roasters tool kit apart from the Roasting Machine is
                                Wait for it
                                Ones tongue

                                I argue that unless you have trained your tongue  to recognise the different flavours and try to blend to a profile, then you wont have much success
                                "Noting" that every year as growing conditions are never the same that sensory organ called the tongue is ones greatest asset to match consistency and flavour by altering the mix as required

                                If a roaster gives you a recipe of bean origins and percentage % amounts to roast one would still have difficulty to get it the same because you have not been involved in the preliminary cupping/tasting phase

                                KK

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