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  • #31
    Re: Sunbeam sucks!

    Originally posted by 5D7C7777706A190 link=1247127310/24#24 date=1247144053
    Hes not at work at the moment - but does have voicemail.

    That number again is... (2) 9695-8911
    Brilliant...GOLD even!

    Meanwhile, Ive been laughing about how it only takes one letter to change "Welly" to...

    Wally...

    ;D

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Sunbeam sucks!

      I wonder if any one will sent the link to this thread, to Sunbeam ?

      OH NO.. A coffee story shoot out on Today Tonight ( opps 7 Vs 9)

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Sunbeam sucks!

        Originally posted by 0D2C2727203A490 link=1247127310/24#24 date=1247144053
        Hes not at work at the moment - but does have voicemail.
        **Cack**


        Really, I think it was a fair request but common sense should have told Welly that Sunbeam get far more good exposure than bad exposure in CoffeeSnobs and poking a stick in the ants nest was just plain silly.

        I still fail to see what they think they are protecting by asking a local coffee community forum to remove it while it is freely available all over the internet.

        Oh yeah I forgot to say...

        SUNBEAM SUX

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Sunbeam sucks!

          Poor taste by sunbeam  
          Geez this forum has helped the sale of many a Sunbeam. Last week I went out and bought an EM6910 because of the recommendations from this forum and my somewhat limited funds. I was even looking at buying their EM0480 grinder next week. Now I think I will just save up a few more pennies and buy a Rocky.  >

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Sunbeam sucks!

            Heh, I probably shouldnt play devils advocate with hardly any experience around here, but this is so unbelievably close to something I went through a few years ago I hope no-one minds if I relate it.

            Just a little note, Im not affiliated with sunbeam, I use their products but other than that have no loyalty one way or another. Never tried their customer support and Im about as far as you can get from being a coffee hardware guru. I just have a bit of experience with leaked manuals.

            Story is back from when I was a part owner in an automotive performance parts workshop. We were an authorised dealer for an Australian manufacturer of performance car parts (Sorry I dont mean to sound vague, but Im not going to give names, things you type on the net tend to have a habit of remaining for a long time.) A customer had a part fitted and went back up north with it, but decided he wanted to adjust it, rang us and asked for help. Normally wed get the customer to swing by and tweak the part free of charge, but because of the distance involved our mechanic who took the call emailed over a section of the service manual for the part so the customer could do it himself. The customer then quite innocently posted that part of the manual to an online forum for that make of car, to help other people in his position.

            Took about two weeks from there for the sh!t to hit the fan. Another member in the dealer network caught wind that the manual had been leaked. While my workshop was a pretty casual affair and would do small tweaks for free, his charged a tuning fee. He was not happy. He complained to the company, who was not happy. The company followed it up and through the forum got in touch with the customer and found out it was our mechanic who leaked it.

            We had a pretty good relationship with the manufacturer, and I cant speak highly enough for the local area representative who went in to bat for us when things turned nasty and the lawyers started circling. Basically the upset workshop owner plus several more hed by that time gathered together to form a lynch mob, came after us guns blazing, fairly enough claiming that our workshop had breached confidentiality agreements and wanted to sue for lost earnings. Eventually with the help of the manufacturer we bargained our way out of a court case, but our workshop had to surrender our authorised dealer status which cost us a pretty penny and forced us to send a lot of customers over to the other dealers.

            Anyways, thats my story. I dunno if it really relates to this Sunbeam situation, I dont know about their policies regarding dealers, intellectual property etc. But if its anything like what I went through Id say having the manual available online would not be great from an intellectual property viewpoint but it might also be leaving them open to a pissed off dealer network which i think theyre really pushing hard in Australia. By that I mean the free training courses their providing and here in Perth theyve got no less than ten authorised repairers! Put it into perspective, LG phones has one authorised repairer in Perth and its seriously a drive down a dark alley and knock three times on an unmarked door affair (dont get me started on LG...)

            Not taking any sides, just throwing in my two cents from someone who went through something that sounds similar. Sorry bout the length of the post! Always been something that bugged me losing that authorised dealer... I mean Ive made my peace with it, and it was fair enough, but yer, getting that phonecall to find out my mechanic had accidentally put the entire workshop at risk by being helpful... really opened my eyes to the truth about business. Its not about being a good guy or a bad guy, sometimes its about making sure your not leaving an opening for someone to take advantage of.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Sunbeam sucks!

              Originally posted by 2B2E3D223C3B3D2021284F0 link=1247127310/35#35 date=1247160375
              Heh, I probably shouldnt play devils advocate with hardly any experience around here, but this is so unbelievably close to something I went through a few years ago I hope no-one minds if I relate it.

              Just a little note, Im not affiliated with sunbeam, I use their products but other than that have no loyalty one way or another. Never tried their customer support and Im about as far as you can get from being a coffee hardware guru. I just have a bit of experience with leaked manuals.

              Story is back from when I was a part owner in an automotive performance parts workshop. We were an authorised dealer for an Australian manufacturer of performance car parts (Sorry I dont mean to sound vague, but Im not going to give names, things you type on the net tend to have a habit of remaining for a long time.) A customer had a part fitted and went back up north with it, but decided he wanted to adjust it, rang us and asked for help. Normally wed get the customer to swing by and tweak the part free of charge, but because of the distance involved our mechanic who took the call emailed over a section of the service manual for the part so the customer could do it himself. The customer then quite innocently posted that part of the manual to an online forum for that make of car, to help other people in his position.

              Took about two weeks from there for the sh!t to hit the fan. Another member in the dealer network caught wind that the manual had been leaked. While my workshop was a pretty casual affair and would do small tweaks for free, his charged a tuning fee. He was not happy. He complained to the company, who was not happy. The company followed it up and through the forum got in touch with the customer and found out it was our mechanic who leaked it.

              We had a pretty good relationship with the manufacturer, and I cant speak highly enough for the local area representative who went in to bat for us when things turned nasty and the lawyers started circling. Basically the upset workshop owner plus several more hed by that time gathered together to form a lynch mob, came after us guns blazing, fairly enough claiming that our workshop had breached confidentiality agreements and wanted to sue for lost earnings. Eventually with the help of the manufacturer we bargained our way out of a court case, but our workshop had to surrender our authorised dealer status which cost us a pretty penny and forced us to send a lot of customers over to the other dealers.

              Anyways, thats my story. I dunno if it really relates to this Sunbeam situation, I dont know about their policies regarding dealers, intellectual property etc. But if its anything like what I went through Id say having the manual available online would not be great from an intellectual property viewpoint but it might also be leaving them open to a pissed off dealer network which i think theyre really pushing hard in Australia. By that I mean the free training courses their providing and here in Perth theyve got no less than ten authorised repairers! Put it into perspective, LG phones has one authorised repairer in Perth and its seriously a drive down a dark alley and knock three times on an unmarked door affair (dont get me started on LG...)

              Not taking any sides, just throwing in my two cents from someone who went through something that sounds similar. Sorry bout the length of the post! Always been something that bugged me losing that authorised dealer... I mean Ive made my peace with it, and it was fair enough, but yer, getting that phonecall to find out my mechanic had accidentally put the entire workshop at risk by being helpful... really opened my eyes to the truth about business. Its not about being a good guy or a bad guy, sometimes its about making sure your not leaving an opening for someone to take advantage of.
              I would suggest that most of us... Including Andy would agree and support your comments...

              As a strong supporter of the EM 6910 and until recently Sunbeam... The issue for me is that their support for a highly marketed product has not been as positive and very hit and miss depending on who you might get.

              In addition... The so called manual is a parts list...  Nothing more..  No instructions, no values, no supplier information etc etc....  Even the electronics is not a detailed drawing etc etc

              A parts list, nothing more or less.  Then if you look at CS and the support provided to Sunbeam customers and the effort taken to ensure the product is used correctly and thus reduce warranty and other calls to Sunbeam for HELP...

              One would have thought they could have approached it differently...

              If it was a company call and there was something in the Parts list they did not want people to know..  A smart deal would have been to be Open with Andy and offer something in return...

              Every one would have been happy and Sunbeam would not get slammed along with even more positive support form many within CS...

              As it is, an e-mail sent with little thought and just a TACT  approach- has damaged the  Sunbeam rep more than they might realise.


              Technical Ass Covering Today (TACT )

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                Originally posted by 5F707A671E0 link=1247127310/33#33 date=1247147969
                Originally posted by 0D2C2727203A490 link=1247127310/24#24 date=1247144053
                Hes not at work at the moment - but does have voicemail.
                **Cack**


                Really, I think it was a fair request but common sense should have told Welly that Sunbeam get far more good exposure than bad exposure in CoffeeSnobs and poking a stick in the ants nest was just plain silly.

                I still fail to see what they think they are protecting by asking a local coffee community forum to remove it while it is freely available all over the internet.

                Oh yeah I forgot to say...

                SUNBEAM SUX
                Oh did they also hit up the other coffee forums, that also have much to do with the Sunbeam EM6910 and also promote the said download ???  

                Or was this a direct approach to CS alone...   Maybe CS it getting too big :-)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                  Actually I think the way in which the Sunbeam rep approached this was quite good. I used to work for an internet service provider, and these kind of things usually arrived with a solicitors letterhead threatening litigation if the offending material was not removed immediately.

                  Welly simply asked politely.

                  This "service manual" is after all, their copyright and no one here sought their permission to distribute it so I dont see any problem with asking it to be removed.

                  yes, this forum gives them a lot of exposure and Im sure tens if not hundreds of machines have been sold as a result of this forum. Engaging with the community a bit more would be nice.

                  I just think its a little unfair to start bashing them because of this.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                    Did somebody use a pdf editor and include the word Tibet? :-?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                      Originally posted by 3633203F2126203D3C35520 link=1247127310/35#35 date=1247160375
                      getting that phonecall to find out my mechanic had accidentally put the entire workshop at risk by being helpful...

                      really opened my eyes to the truth about business. Its not about being a good guy or a bad guy, sometimes its about making sure your not leaving an opening for someone to take advantage of.
                      yeah i kind of agree with this post, we know sunbeams are both good and bad in ways, they have asked CS (Andy) to remove the material its still out there in PM land.

                      someone host it on "megadownlad" etc etc and pass on a link to those that ask

                      IMO delete the thread too..........those weasels (lawyers) have a way of figuring out ways to get you.

                      not saying SB would be bothered but...... no one wants the grief of it do they?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                        Originally posted by 505C555858513D0 link=1247127310/40#40 date=1247181932
                        Originally posted by 3633203F2126203D3C35520 link=1247127310/35#35 date=1247160375
                        getting that phonecall to find out my mechanic had accidentally put the entire workshop at risk by being helpful...

                        really opened my eyes to the truth about business. Its not about being a good guy or a bad guy, sometimes its about making sure your not leaving an opening for someone to take advantage of.
                        yeah i kind of agree with this post, we know sunbeams are both good and bad in ways, they have asked CS (Andy) to remove the material its still out there in PM land.

                        someone host it on "megadownlad" etc etc and pass on a link to those that ask

                        IMO delete the thread too..........those weasels (lawyers) have a way of figuring out ways to get you.

                        not saying SB would be bothered but...... no one wants the grief of it do they?
                        The other issue is that the Parts list/ Manual / Service Manual etc etc has been posted and uploaded a number of times...

                        Where it has the same name the forum will block it as it is identified as being on teh system... However, people then just rename the file and attach as another name... But it still the same product / document / pdf but stored under a different name on the server.....

                        For the CS forum to be totally clean..  

                        Andy will have to trawl all the uploaded PDFs and potentially look at more than a few to clean the system... Further more he will have to trawl every post and then remove that post or topic or implied link... Lots of work for someone..


                        At the end of the day, regardless of a nice request or otherwise...  

                        The person who sent it could have managed it much better and retained a good working relationship on the forum.


                        AM

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                          The request was not unreasonable but as noted on other posts its still out there in WWW land

                          Just as a comparison on company policy
                          If one goes to the Barazi Bezzera site a full parts list schematic is available on all current Bezzera machines  

                          KK

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                            Originally posted by 496D646467675D496D716F6D020 link=1247127310/42#42 date=1247182685
                            The request was not unreasonable but as noted on other posts its still out there in WWW land

                            If one goes to the Barazi Bezzera site a full parts list schematic is available on all current machines  

                            KK

                            Yea... but they are client focused and a sponsor... Besides, who needs the full parts list schematics except for consumables... They dont break down ;D

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                              Originally posted by 2D2F232B2B25223F4C0 link=1247127310/38#38 date=1247180409
                              Actually I think the way in which the Sunbeam rep approached this was quite good. I used to work for an internet service provider, and these kind of things usually arrived with a solicitors letterhead threatening litigation if the offending material was not removed immediately.
                              Getting an email rather than a letter from a solicitor translates to a better approach? Sorry Grant, but thats just garbage.

                              Oh I know this is the way the world has become, but has anyone heard of picking up the phone first and actually talking to each other?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Sunbeam sucks!

                                Originally posted by 48676E6C7B446867686E6C646C677D090 link=1247127310/41#41 date=1247182505
                                At the end of the day, regardless of a nice request or otherwise...

                                The person who sent it could have managed it much better and retained a good working relationship on the forum.


                                well i think he did ok with his wording, i notice (highlighted)

                                kept it simple explained why and gave his contact details ?

                                did not bang on about stuff etc

                                Originally posted by 48676D70090 link=1247127310/0#0 date=1247127310
                                Andy,

                                My name is Welly Khouw and work for Sunbeam Corporation Limited.

                                I noticed that you have a copy of the service manual of EM6910 as per link below.


                                Please note that the documentation is confidential and commercially sensitive. Can you please take it of your website immediately.

                                Thanks


                                Regards,
                                Welly Khouw [ch35377][ch20553][ch21033]
                                Service Manager, Sunbeam Corporation Limited

                                Comment

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