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Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

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  • #16
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Isnt Fair Crack a form of Fair Trade without the branding? If the producer is helped that would make it fair. The issue with not contributing to some sort of FT scheme is that the mark up is ALWAYS there. At least with an FT and Fair Crack more goes to the producer to keep them in business.

    If quality allows I prefer to buy producer benefiting coffee because I want to continue to have a good choice of good coffee.
    Do not discount as trendy or bureaucratic schemes that at least try to distribute some of the profit.

    Now all we have to do is get people to care about the poor sap loading the container to send us the coffee and the world would be a better place

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

      Originally posted by 1508191B6B6F5A0 link=1253017514/15#15 date=1253077701
      Isnt Fair Crack a form of Fair Trade without the branding?  If the producer is helped that would make it fair.  The issue with not contributing to some sort of FT scheme is that the mark up is ALWAYS there.  At least with an FT and Fair Crack more goes to the producer to keep them in business.  

      If quality allows I prefer to buy producer benefiting coffee because I want to continue to have a good choice of good coffee.  
      Do not discount as trendy or bureaucratic schemes that at least try to distribute some of the profit.

      Now all we have to do is get people to care about the poor sap loading the container to send us the coffee and the world would be a better place
      How long have you been working for FT Jethro?  :-?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

        Originally posted by 786574760602370 link=1253017514/13#13 date=1253074470
        But, the inherent problem with fairtrade is the supply chain used after the farm gate is normally screwed for price. This is a cause that needs addressing.
        How deeply have you actually looked into Fair Trade coffee? The farmer is not paid the FT price. The coop is. Fair Trade does little or nothing for the actual farmer. Once again it is a middle man who is getting the higher price, not the farmer.

        Every study I have seen of the FT system that was done by an independent party has indicated it ti be little more than a feel good branding for the masses with the farmers rarely seeing any of the additional monies. The only real financial winners in the whole FT system is the FT administration/certification organization. Theyre the only ones raking in the dough it appears.


        Java "Disgusted with the whole FT system" phile
        Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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        • #19
          Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

          Originally posted by 574A5B59292D180 link=1253017514/15#15 date=1253077701
          Isnt Fair Crack a form of Fair Trade without the branding?
          I think that Fair Crack is a great step towards improving standards for growers, in a way that offers them real returns. It may lead towards Fairly Traded coffee...but to say that it is a form of FT would most likely get the FT org up in arms.

          Part of what FT does is to certify the bean along the way (a huge cost in itself) - what it doesnt do is to try to improve the quality. There are other certification programs doing great stuff - which is why I get frustrated when people have eyes only for FT. When you start to hear things like coffee farmers selling their reject beans to FT, you start to get concerned.

          We are incredibly blessed, here in Australia. We should be trying to support the oppressed, widowed, the fatherless and the poor - I am unconvinced that FT is the best way to do it.

          I think that the Fair Crack scheme is superb in its goal to utilize 100% of its donations to help coffee farming communities.

          There are some good issues here to debate!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

            Originally posted by 24263732242F2E29470 link=1253017514/18#18 date=1253079585
            There are other certification programs doing great stuff - which is why I get frustrated when people have eyes only for FT. When you start to hear things like coffee farmers selling their reject beans to FT, you start to get concerned.

            There are some good issues here to debate!
            A good example I remember when Mcdonalds started using "rainforest alliance". This wasnt good enough for some coumnists who accused rainforest alliance of being "fair trade light"


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            • #21
              Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

              Originally posted by 696E7B74791A0 link=1253017514/12#12 date=1253070348
              What is more relevant is the numerous chemicals used to control pests etc. These pesticides can be really nasty, so the term pesticide free is more applicable.
              Australia is notorious for controlling pests with nasty chemicals,
              Being in the know...Id just like to point out that pesticides that are used on our crops in this district are softer than what you lot spray in your house for flies... :

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              • #22
                Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                Originally posted by 4F485D525F3C0 link=1253017514/12#12 date=1253070348
                Australia is notorious for controlling pests with nasty chemicals, be it AQUIS (imported food) or the numerous states (like SA) that require some foods to be "treated" before being able to be sold or transported to particular regions.
                Ive been wondering recently what AQIS treat the green beans with when they come into the country.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                  I dont whether to laugh or cry when people rave on about I only buy Fairtrade, organic and the like and then walk into Maccas to buy their coffee.

                  Being trendy often causes much more harm than good.
                  Give me the coffeesnobs fair crack anyday!

                  Oh, and my very slowly growing wisdom has taught me that the more someone has to prove to me that they are a good person, the more they are not a good person.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                    Originally posted by 6A5B4C5554535855433A0 link=1253017514/22#22 date=1253085326
                    I dont whether to laugh or cry when people rave on about I only buy Fairtrade, organic and the like and then walk into Maccas to buy their coffee.
                    Because Maccas only uses ethical products and would never exploit anyone :

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                      Probably Methyl Bromide Fumigation- Thats what rice gets treated with when we send it to Japan

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                        The reality is that, according to Australian rates of pay, much of the world is underpaid.

                        If you are really serious about avoiding the exploitation of those paid less than Australian rates of pay, youll eat only local Australian produce (and Id venture that even some Australians are exploited), and have a hard time purchasing just about everything else. ;D

                        Im just glad to be doing my part for the coffee producers through the Fair Crack donation.

                        Greg

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                          I think that any discussion of fair trade needs to take place against an understanding of the enormity and diversity of global markets for coffee and how they function. If cup quality is important to you, then cup quality should be taken into account when deciding whether or not to buy a particular fair trade certified product. I put quite a bit of work into writing an article on these two points and providing a number of links on the subject. It can be viewed here: http://coffeereviewaustralia.com/2009/06/28/fair-trade-certification-and-coffee-quality-a-very-brief-exploration/

                          (If anyone feels that its poor form of me to post that link, please dont hesitate to speak up and let me know, but I do feel that what I wrote in that article is very relevant to this topic and will be of interest to people reading it.)

                          Originally posted by 43687F68796160656C090 link=1253017514/17#17 date=1253078951
                          How deeply have you actually looked into Fair Trade coffee? The farmer is not paid the FT price. The coop is. Fair Trade does little or nothing for the actual farmer. Once again it is a middle man who is getting the higher price, not the farmer.
                          The coop point is an excellent one to raise, Java. Id like to add three interesting points that spring to mind (and Im sure that there are more):
                          1. many people, including Andy, have made the argument that coops are antithetical to getting the best quality coffee because the truly spectacular stuff will be blended with stuff that isnt as good;
                          2. not all coffee is produced in a coop system and smallholders that do not produce coffee in such a system may be ineligible for fair trade certification - eg. smallholders in PNG; and
                          3. the cost of creating and running a coop needs to be taken into account in determining the net benefit that farmers actually receive.

                          To put a new spin on the FT discussion, one question that I have is this: if the problem is that people involved in coffee production are poor, why does the solution have to be to guarantee them a price for their coffee? Why cant we address the poverty problem as a general poverty problem unrelated to coffee ... or by assisting people to switch to alternate crops? After all, if the problem is that people are poor because coffee prices are low, and coffee prices are low because of overproduction, isnt guaranteeing a price for coffee watering down the effectiveness of market prices in encouraging the producers of the lowest quality coffee to exit the market and switch to a crop that is more beneficial to everyone?

                          Cheers,

                          Luca

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                            Originally posted by 372E383A5B0 link=1253017514/26#26 date=1253191766
                            Why cant we address the poverty problem as a general poverty problem unrelated to coffee ... or by assisting people to switch to alternate crops?
                            Hi Luca

                            I think youve raised some simple, interesting questions that come with complex answers.

                            I preface by saying I dont have a good or intimate understanding of many of the issues, but some points that spring to mind:

                            a) Horticultural crops (like coffee, nuts, etc.) can bring a higher return than agricultural crops (like cotton), but are more labour intensive.

                            b) To optimise the return for switching to agricultural crops land levelling, access to water, and harvesting equipment are necessary and I imagine there may be many areas where this is difficult or not an option.

                            c) I guess if my family had been harvesting coffee for generations, to be persuaded to switch crops would take some doing.

                            d) Weve seen the effects of switching and perhaps hear more about the bad outcomes rather than the good, eg. clearing forest areas in Sth America to the detriment of wildlife and the indigenous population; burning old forestation in Indonesia with similar outcomes; and even here in AU, an arid country, some farmers have switched to growing cotton that is a water-hungry crop.

                            My instincts still tell me its better not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and it would be better to help farmers develop a better product rather than switch.

                            Surely, with our increasing interest in quality coffees, there lies an opportunity if this path is chosen?

                            Cheers

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                            • #29
                              Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                              Originally posted by 51707B7B7C66150 link=1253017514/27#27 date=1253250981
                              Originally posted by 372E383A5B0 link=1253017514/26#26 date=1253191766
                              Why cant we address the poverty problem as a general poverty problem unrelated to coffee ... or by assisting people to switch to alternate crops?
                              Hi Luca

                              I think youve raised some simple, interesting questions that come with complex answers.

                              I preface by saying I dont have a good or intimate understanding of many of the issues, but some points that spring to mind:

                              a) Horticultural crops (like coffee, nuts, etc.) can bring a higher return than agricultural crops (like cotton), but are more labour intensive.
                              I have been pondering this line for a while, since I heard a presentation on it earlier this year - from what I understood, as soon as theres a big frost in Brasil and world coffee prices spike, farmers all over the world are inclined to rip up their food crops and plant coffee. Thus, by the time theyre able to harvest, theres a surplus and the price falls again. It seems to me that discouraging these farmers from ripping up the crops which can sustain their communities is a good idea.

                              If its all about supply and demand, then if too much coffee is grown worldwide, thats no good for anyone.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

                                Originally posted by 647D6B69080 link=1253017514/26#26 date=1253191766
                                encouraging the producers of the lowest quality coffee to exit the market and switch to a crop that is more beneficial to everyone?
                                Originally posted by 657F697C7C080 link=1253017514/28#28 date=1253253166
                                It seems to me that discouraging these farmers from ripping up the crops which can sustain their communities is a good idea.
                                If I read these correctly, these are two opposite views suggesting how to resolve the same problem that just go to show how complex it would be to find a solution.

                                Theoretically, there is probably a very simple solution to poverty. All wed need to do is share our resources. Its a pity we humans tend to be greedy.



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