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Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

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  • Identity
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Originally posted by 005F47515A515D545457575F535C320 link=1253017514/33#33 date=1253272909
    Good thing that a significant proportion of the coffee Andy sources for us is direct trade  8-)
    but this doesnt mean youd encourage people not to buy the coffee that isnt? I know I wouldnt...

    by the way, the one problem with Black Gold is that its a video shot by someone whos already decided the premise of their film, and their opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dennis
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Originally posted by 544E584D4D390 link=1253017514/32#32 date=1253271169
    But it seems logical that if there is less coffee grown, a higher price will be paid for it
    Seems like the simplest solution and one that would apply to any type of harvest. Yet I think its true that within the wine industry, bumper crops can generate more profits for the growers, while the glut of wine forces prices down for the makers?

    Originally posted by 544E584D4D390 link=1253017514/32#32 date=1253271169
    I do realise its a complex issue
    Yeah, the more I think bout it the more my brain hurts.

    Originally posted by 544E584D4D390 link=1253017514/32#32 date=1253271169
    I actually dont have many answers
    Me either. But I think bringing it to discussion raises our collective consciousness and makes us more considerate about our purchases - not a bad start.

    Originally posted by 0B544C5A515A565F5F5C5C545857390 link=1253017514/33#33 date=1253272909
    Good thing that a significant proportion of the coffee Andy sources for us is direct trade
    And coupled with FairCrack, is why I am always thrilled whenever I have the opportunity to purchase through BeanBay.

    Leave a comment:


  • madpierre06
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    As spoken about in another thread, there is a DVD called Black Gold, which whilst is primarily about the coffee growers in Ethiopia and a search to find a better way to get a bigger birr in the pocket, does touch on briefly at the end the fact that Africa(with a predominance of developing nations) has a grand sum of 1% of the worlds trade, as generously allowed for them through the WTO.

    It was pointed out that if they were able to grab another 1%, the difference made in terms of less aid needed (and by extension greater self sufficiency and less poverty) woud be great indeed. And it was funny how the aid pictured arriving had USA in big bright letters stencilled across the tops of the bags.

    It is a complex problem, and has to be regarded on many fronts, not just one tentacle in isolation. We could do another 10 pages in this thread and still only cover half the relevant issues.

    Recommend the DVD spoken of very highly.

    Leave a comment:


  • TC
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Good thing that a significant proportion of the coffee Andy sources for us is direct trade 8-)

    Leave a comment:


  • mwatt
    Guest replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Originally posted by 527378787F65160 link=1253017514/31#31 date=1253270038
    Originally posted by 4D57415454200 link=1253017514/30#30 date=1253264197
    Nope, I meant encourage them not to rip up their food crops.
    Oh, sorry Michelle.

    Kind of raises even more questions in my mind.  "Discouraging" farmers in developing nations?  How do you do that?  Through education, legislation, nationalisation, force?

    You mentioned Brazil earlier and it reminded me of Daterra.  They have advanced the quality and desirability of their coffee product enabling them to become what I believe to be a role model when it comes to social responsibility.  To me, they also represent a model of how poverty can be overcome.

    Their website is worth a look if any CS readers havent already done so...

    http://www.daterracoffee.com.br/#/ids-home
    Well, clearly, force. You know me, Im all about violence and oppression :-? I do realise its a complex issue, and I actually dont have many answers.

    I absolutely agree that we ought to be concerned for the plight of the oppressed and the poor, the widowed and the fatherless. I, like many CSers it would seem, remain unconvinced that capital F Fair Trade is the best way forward.

    But it seems logical that if there is less coffee grown, a higher price will be paid for it - whether or not any of that gets back to the farmers depends on the greed of middle men. Which is why I think the increasing number of coffee companies involved in directly-traded coffee is a great thing! And yeah, coffee through these avenues costs more. As it should.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dennis
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Originally posted by 4D57415454200 link=1253017514/30#30 date=1253264197
    Nope, I meant encourage them not to rip up their food crops.
    Oh, sorry Michelle.

    Kind of raises even more questions in my mind. "Discouraging" farmers in developing nations? How do you do that? Through education, legislation, nationalisation, force?

    You mentioned Brazil earlier and it reminded me of Daterra. They have advanced the quality and desirability of their coffee product enabling them to become what I believe to be a role model when it comes to social responsibility. To me, they also represent a model of how poverty can be overcome.

    Their website is worth a look if any CS readers havent already done so...

    http://www.daterracoffee.com.br/#/ids-home

    Leave a comment:


  • mwatt
    Guest replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Nope, I meant encourage them not to rip up their food crops.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dennis
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Originally posted by 647D6B69080 link=1253017514/26#26 date=1253191766
    encouraging the producers of the lowest quality coffee to exit the market and switch to a crop that is more beneficial to everyone?
    Originally posted by 657F697C7C080 link=1253017514/28#28 date=1253253166
    It seems to me that discouraging these farmers from ripping up the crops which can sustain their communities is a good idea.
    If I read these correctly, these are two opposite views suggesting how to resolve the same problem that just go to show how complex it would be to find a solution.

    Theoretically, there is probably a very simple solution to poverty. All wed need to do is share our resources. Its a pity we humans tend to be greedy.



    Leave a comment:


  • mwatt
    Guest replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Originally posted by 51707B7B7C66150 link=1253017514/27#27 date=1253250981
    Originally posted by 372E383A5B0 link=1253017514/26#26 date=1253191766
    Why cant we address the poverty problem as a general poverty problem unrelated to coffee ... or by assisting people to switch to alternate crops?
    Hi Luca

    I think youve raised some simple, interesting questions that come with complex answers.

    I preface by saying I dont have a good or intimate understanding of many of the issues, but some points that spring to mind:

    a) Horticultural crops (like coffee, nuts, etc.) can bring a higher return than agricultural crops (like cotton), but are more labour intensive.
    I have been pondering this line for a while, since I heard a presentation on it earlier this year - from what I understood, as soon as theres a big frost in Brasil and world coffee prices spike, farmers all over the world are inclined to rip up their food crops and plant coffee. Thus, by the time theyre able to harvest, theres a surplus and the price falls again. It seems to me that discouraging these farmers from ripping up the crops which can sustain their communities is a good idea.

    If its all about supply and demand, then if too much coffee is grown worldwide, thats no good for anyone.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dennis
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Originally posted by 372E383A5B0 link=1253017514/26#26 date=1253191766
    Why cant we address the poverty problem as a general poverty problem unrelated to coffee ... or by assisting people to switch to alternate crops?
    Hi Luca

    I think youve raised some simple, interesting questions that come with complex answers.

    I preface by saying I dont have a good or intimate understanding of many of the issues, but some points that spring to mind:

    a) Horticultural crops (like coffee, nuts, etc.) can bring a higher return than agricultural crops (like cotton), but are more labour intensive.

    b) To optimise the return for switching to agricultural crops land levelling, access to water, and harvesting equipment are necessary and I imagine there may be many areas where this is difficult or not an option.

    c) I guess if my family had been harvesting coffee for generations, to be persuaded to switch crops would take some doing.

    d) Weve seen the effects of switching and perhaps hear more about the bad outcomes rather than the good, eg. clearing forest areas in Sth America to the detriment of wildlife and the indigenous population; burning old forestation in Indonesia with similar outcomes; and even here in AU, an arid country, some farmers have switched to growing cotton that is a water-hungry crop.

    My instincts still tell me its better not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and it would be better to help farmers develop a better product rather than switch.

    Surely, with our increasing interest in quality coffees, there lies an opportunity if this path is chosen?

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • luca
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    I think that any discussion of fair trade needs to take place against an understanding of the enormity and diversity of global markets for coffee and how they function. If cup quality is important to you, then cup quality should be taken into account when deciding whether or not to buy a particular fair trade certified product. I put quite a bit of work into writing an article on these two points and providing a number of links on the subject. It can be viewed here: http://coffeereviewaustralia.com/2009/06/28/fair-trade-certification-and-coffee-quality-a-very-brief-exploration/

    (If anyone feels that its poor form of me to post that link, please dont hesitate to speak up and let me know, but I do feel that what I wrote in that article is very relevant to this topic and will be of interest to people reading it.)

    Originally posted by 43687F68796160656C090 link=1253017514/17#17 date=1253078951
    How deeply have you actually looked into Fair Trade coffee? The farmer is not paid the FT price. The coop is. Fair Trade does little or nothing for the actual farmer. Once again it is a middle man who is getting the higher price, not the farmer.
    The coop point is an excellent one to raise, Java. Id like to add three interesting points that spring to mind (and Im sure that there are more):
    1. many people, including Andy, have made the argument that coops are antithetical to getting the best quality coffee because the truly spectacular stuff will be blended with stuff that isnt as good;
    2. not all coffee is produced in a coop system and smallholders that do not produce coffee in such a system may be ineligible for fair trade certification - eg. smallholders in PNG; and
    3. the cost of creating and running a coop needs to be taken into account in determining the net benefit that farmers actually receive.

    To put a new spin on the FT discussion, one question that I have is this: if the problem is that people involved in coffee production are poor, why does the solution have to be to guarantee them a price for their coffee? Why cant we address the poverty problem as a general poverty problem unrelated to coffee ... or by assisting people to switch to alternate crops? After all, if the problem is that people are poor because coffee prices are low, and coffee prices are low because of overproduction, isnt guaranteeing a price for coffee watering down the effectiveness of market prices in encouraging the producers of the lowest quality coffee to exit the market and switch to a crop that is more beneficial to everyone?

    Cheers,

    Luca

    Leave a comment:


  • GregWormald
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    The reality is that, according to Australian rates of pay, much of the world is underpaid.

    If you are really serious about avoiding the exploitation of those paid less than Australian rates of pay, youll eat only local Australian produce (and Id venture that even some Australians are exploited), and have a hard time purchasing just about everything else. ;D

    Im just glad to be doing my part for the coffee producers through the Fair Crack donation.

    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • ORCA15
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Probably Methyl Bromide Fumigation- Thats what rice gets treated with when we send it to Japan

    Leave a comment:


  • TC
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    Originally posted by 6A5B4C5554535855433A0 link=1253017514/22#22 date=1253085326
    I dont whether to laugh or cry when people rave on about I only buy Fairtrade, organic and the like and then walk into Maccas to buy their coffee.
    Because Maccas only uses ethical products and would never exploit anyone :

    Leave a comment:


  • Pavoniboy
    replied
    Re: Facebook coffee venom. (coffee ethics)

    I dont whether to laugh or cry when people rave on about I only buy Fairtrade, organic and the like and then walk into Maccas to buy their coffee.

    Being trendy often causes much more harm than good.
    Give me the coffeesnobs fair crack anyday!

    Oh, and my very slowly growing wisdom has taught me that the more someone has to prove to me that they are a good person, the more they are not a good person.

    Leave a comment:

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