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  • #16
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 46736466566E736C606D65010 link=1256465536/14#14 date=1256684385
    I ran 20 litres of RO water through my Diadema as part of a problem-solving strategy, and while everything worked well in the short time the practice was in place, it did make the most ordinary, flat, uninteresting coffee you would never want to have.
    This is very interesting, and is actually another test that I was considering, taste of DI coffee Vs mineralised coffee - for want of better descriptors
    Its pointless making awful coffee ;D

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

      Lifted straight from Sandviks site http://www.smt.sandvik.com/ go to the "Technical Centre"
      My contact with corrosion tables has changed jobs, so now I have to make a trip to the library if I want access to corrosion tables which is why you are subjected to the data below.
      This is extreme levels of dissolved subtances but it highlights the trend==> the higher the dissolved substances and the higher the temp, the greater the corrosion. This holds true for all metals.
      My apologies once again for the dreadful formatting but sandvik dont allow links directly to their technical data. The item on the start of each line is various grades of steel ranging from standard carbon steel through to high molybdenum content stainless steel..


      Corrosion tables
      Calcium chloride

      Conc. CaCl2% 5  5    5  10
      Temp. °C  20 50 100 20
      Carbon Steel   2   2    2    2
      13% Cr-Steel 0p 1p 1p 1p
      18-2  0p 0p 0p 0p
      Sandvik 3R12 0p 0p 0ps 0p
      Sandvik 3R60 0p 0p 0ps 0p
      18-13-3   0p 0p 0ps 0p
      17-14-4   0p 0p 0ps 0p
      Sandvik 2RK65 0p 0p 0ps 0p
      Sandvik Sanicro 28    0  
      Sandvik 254 SMO 0  
      654 SMO 0  
      Sandvik SAF 2304 0  
      Sandvik SAF 2205 0  
      Sandvik SAF 2507 0  

      Conc. CaCl2% 10  10  10   25   40  62
      Temp. C    50 100 135 100 100 155
      Carbon Steel    2    2 2    2  
      13% Cr-Steel    1p 1p     1p  2  
      18-2     0p 0p     0p  0p  
      Sandvik 3R12    0p 0ps   0ps 0ps  
      Sandvik 3R60     0p 0ps  0ps 0ps  
      18-13-3 0p 0ps   0ps 0ps  
      17-14-4 0p 0ps   0ps 0ps  
      Sandvik 2RK65   0p 0ps   0ps 0ps  
      Sandvik Sanicro 28   0c  0ND  0ps  
      Sandvik 254 SMO 0p  0pc 0s  
      654 SMO 0    0pc  0ps  
      Sandvik SAF 2304 0p  0p   0p  
      Sandvik SAF 2205 0p  0p   0ps  
      Sandvik SAF 2507 0    0p   0ps  



      Symbols
      These corrosion tables use a number of symbols, having the following meanings: Symbol Description
      0 = Corrosion rate less than 0.1 mm/year. The material is corrosion proof.
      1 = Corrosion rate 0.1 – 1.0 mm/year.The material is not corrosion proof, but useful in certain cases.
      2 = Corrosion rate over 1.0 mm/year. Serious corrosion. The material is not usable.
      p, P = Risk (Severe risk) of pitting and crevice corrosion.
      c, C = Risk (Severe risk) of crevice corrosion. Used when there is a risk of localised corrosion only if crevices are present. Under more severe conditions, when there is also a risk of pitting corrosion, the symbols p or P are used instead.
      s, S =  Risk (Severe risk) of stress corrosion cracking.
      ig = Risk of intergranular corrosion.
      BP = Boiling solution.
      ND = No data. (Used only where there are no actual data to estimate the risk of localised corrosion instead of p or s).
      Note that the remarks ig, p and s are normally only used where the symbol for general corrosion rate is 0 or 1.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

        In a nut shell... Remove all the numbers and confusion...

        What are we doing with the water..

        DRINKING IT....   Yes, after using coffee grinds as a filter....

        Thus.. why do we drink water.....  Because our body need fulids and minerals etc...  Some times we even like the additives.. Coffee / Booze or sugar  

        Reverse osmosis systems were originally developed to serve the needs of the printing and photo processing companies. These groups need mineral-free water for their work. As noted above, this feature results in mineral-poor water, which could lead to mineral deficiencies in the body.


        The human body needs essential minerals like calcium, iron and potassium to have strong bones, muscles and tissues. These minerals are available through drinking water. When these minerals are removed, the body becomes out of balance and becomes susceptible to illness.

        An additional concern of de-mineralized water is that the body tries to compensate by giving up minerals from the bones. This makes the fluid in your body more acidic, which contributes to cancer-causing free radicals in the blood stream and other parts of the body.

        It is clear from this summary that the question "Does reverse osmosis make water safe to drink" can only be answered with caution.

        The reality is that the process is best used for industrial needs. When used for drinking water production, the disadvantages of reverse osmosis seem to outweigh the benefits. Consumers need to keep this information in mind as they search for the best water purification system for their needs.

        So all you women and older men that may be worried about ya bones etc etc USe RO water for ya coffee - Get use to the crappy quality coffee and spend up big in the chemest to suplement all the extra minerals etc that the RO water has sucked from ya body..

        Conclusion...

        I want good coffee and happy for some minor maintenance to my machine to manage any small amounts of corrusion that might develop.

        And I can save money and remain healthy with strong bones that may even surrive a fall later on in life.  

        Note: Falls and broken hips is often the telling factor that see people pass away much sooner than they should..

         NO RO for me  

        PS. On an iphone this is a bloody pain.. Blind (too many cigs) and a tiny **..

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

          Im quite open to the idea that using high purity water may be bad for coffee making, in fact after reading GregWs post Im fairly certain its not the best thing to make coffee with. I dont use it, I use softened water - via ion exchange resin. :

          What I will argue very strongly against is that high purity water damages a coffee machine, its simply not true!
          You will notice that I have never strayed away from this technicality. Taste and impact on the human body are not areas I have enough expertise to argue with any conviction and I dared not comment on them.

          If high purity water makes poor tasting coffee, therein is a reason for not using it, case closed! But until GWs post above Ive never seen that argument proposed, by anyone. Although I did suspect it may be the case as it has a big impact on the flavor of beer .

          As to the health issues, Im unconvinced either way but I am searching for the truth. The extraction of coffee will leach minerals from the grounds. Does this conteract the purity of the water? Its something Id like to check firsthand rather than leave to supposition or theorising - this often tends to become urban myth and I hate urban myths being held as truth :P Thankgod for the mythbusters
          I will warn you know that Im not a person that accepts "do this, its the best way", I also want to know how it works and why it works that way :P SO when Im told something I know is not right, well look above :

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

            Originally posted by 714156445E525D330 link=1256465536/18#18 date=1256719228
            What I will argue very strongly against is that high purity water damages a coffee machine, its simply not true!Sad
            I am sure any number of Suppliers and users can attest to the fact that the statementis above is false in any number of cases and for different reasons.

            As to the heath impacts.. After 25 years in Pathology, Renal Support and bioMedical Eng along with metel trade experience with boilers etc... I am only going to suggest you go and do some real study on Biology and Body Chemistry.

            In the short term... Try a self experement and do sub ya mineral intake..

            As for me.. I may die of LL Cancer but will have strong bones and coffee stained teeth 8-)

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

              Originally posted by 1C333A382F103C333C3A38303833295D0 link=1256465536/19#19 date=1256723894
              Originally posted by 714156445E525D330 link=1256465536/18#18 date=1256719228
              What I will argue very strongly against is that high purity water damages a coffee machine, its simply not true!Sad  
              I am sure any number of Suppliers and users can attest to the fact that the statementis above is false in any number of cases and for different reasons.

              Ive come to the conclusion that we love to argue with each other ;D And youre trying to arc me up!

              When someone presents evidence that pure water has damaged an espresso machine, I will view it nuetrally and objectively and with a deal of professional knowledge. I dont mean to be a conceited prick but Im not some hack quoting chemistry out of a textbook, this is my area of professional expertise. I know pure water cannot cause premature failure, corrosion or scale. Much smarter men than me have already proven it.

              Originally posted by 1C333A382F103C333C3A38303833295D0 link=1256465536/19#19 date=1256723894
              As for me.. I may die of LL Cancer but will have strong bones and coffee stained teeth 8-)
              ^^At least youll make me laugh in the meantime ;D

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                Originally posted by 033324362C202F410 link=1256465536/20#20 date=1256729744
                When someone presents evidence that pure water has damaged an espresso machine,
                Cut and paste ... I is tired and have real work to do...

                Distilled And Reverse Osmosis (RO)

                The process of distilling/deionizing (DI) water or treating it through RO nearly removes all minerals, impurities, and other ions in the water. First and foremost, this gives any coffee product made with such water a flat taste because the coffees aroma particles will not completely transfer to the water.

                More importantly this kind of water is actually considered corrosive with a pH of about 5.

                Distilled and RO water will also strive to return to a neutral state by leeching the copper, brass, or aluminum from the internal parts of your brewing equipment like the Ascaso Dream. Over time, and depending on the extent of use, enough metal could be removed causing an electrical short or a leak. Also, heat exchanger espresso machines like the Nuova Oscar or Pasquini Livia, use electromagnetic sensor to detect water levels and will not function properly with these types of water. If you choose from the Jura-Capresso line of products, this is not a problem because of their stainless steel-lined heating systems, but taste would still be an issue. If you have a home RO system and want to use that water with your equipment, it is advisable to install a mineral or pH-balancing unit to protect your machine and any household copper plumbing.

                Depending on your squint... I would suggest that any machine that uses a conductive sensor arrangement will not work as intended and in some cases can cause flooding and further issues.. Thus damage to a coffee machine...

                To me... A machine that will not work as intended and without additional processes being put into action - is damaged...

                Reminds me a a previous girlfriend errr wife number 1 or 2... Can not remember.. Lovely people... BUT DAMAGED...

                PS... a min 2.5 kg of green beens by courier will be a suitable appology... What does Andy have going at the moment..

                Hint - Go here http://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au/ViewCategory.aspx/GreenCoffee

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                  Gday AM...

                  Do you have a link to the original document which contains the excerpt above?

                  Mal.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                    Originally posted by 74595D515C300 link=1256465536/22#22 date=1256737001
                    Gday AM...

                    Do you have a link to the original document which contains the excerpt above?

                    Mal.
                    Google is ya mate..

                    It was from Gourmet geeks http://www.jlhufford.com/ and is a 2008 archive artical..  Some interesting spice drinks lower down the page... May have to give them a go...

                    http://www.jlhufford.com/blog/?view=archives&month=9&year=2008

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                      Originally posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
                      Originally posted by 033324362C202F410 link=1256465536/20#20 date=1256729744
                      When someone presents evidence that pure water has damaged an espresso machine,  
                      Cut and paste ... I is tired and have real work to do...

                      Distilled And Reverse Osmosis (RO)

                      The process of distilling/deionizing (DI) water or treating it through RO nearly removes all minerals, impurities, and other ions in the water. First and foremost, this gives any coffee product made with such water a flat taste
                      No argument from me



                      Originally posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
                      [Distilled and RO water will also strive to return to a neutral state by leeching the copper, brass, or aluminum from the internal parts of your brewing equipment like the Ascaso Dream
                      Wrong and is purely conjecture. Place a lump of aluminium, copper or brass in some DI boiling water and see how long it takes to corrode. We are talking tens to hundreds of years - longer than the life of the machine Im guessing.
                      The standard corrosion testing prcedure is to place a 50x20x2mm strip of metal into the solution and reflux for a minimum of one month, remove, measure, weigh -->calculate corrosion rate in mm/year. We conduct these tests regularly.
                      All three metals form protective passive layers which is why they are used. This doesnt mean the layer cannot be stripped off and the metal corroded/dissolved but it cant be done with drinking or purer quality water.

                      Originally posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
                      [Distilled and RO water will also strive to return to a neutral state by leeching the copper, brass, or aluminum from the internal parts of your brewing equipment like the Ascaso Dream.[/u] Over time, and depending on the extent of use, enough metal could be removed causing an electrical short or a leak. Also, heat exchanger espresso machines like the Nuova Oscar or Pasquini Livia, use electromagnetic sensor to detect water levels and will not function properly with these types of water. If you choose from the Jura-Capresso line of products, this is not a problem because of their stainless steel-lined heating systems, but taste would still be an issue. If you have a home RO system and want to use that water with your equipment, it is advisable to install a mineral or pH-balancing unit to protect your machine and any household copper plumbing.
                      Originally posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
                      [Depending on your squint...  I would suggest that any machine that uses a conductive sensor arrangement will not work as intended and in some cases can cause flooding and further issues..
                      True!

                      Originally posted by 18373E3C2B143837383E3C343C372D590 link=1256465536/21#21 date=1256734220
                      To me... A machine that will not work as intended and without additional processes being put into action - is damaged...

                      Reminds me a a previous girlfriend errr wife number 1 or 2... Can not remember..  Lovely people... BUT DAMAGED...

                      PS...  a min 2.5 kg of green beens by courier will be a suitable appology...  What does Andy have going at the moment..

                      Hint - Go here http://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au/ViewCategory.aspx/GreenCoffee  
                      I may buy you the beans just for making me laugh again!!! ;D

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                        http://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au/ViewProduct.aspx/357-ethiopia-kuza

                        Will be fine :-)

                        Just have them sent to Veneziano in Brisbane for a local pick up... If ya do it at BB time... Ya save on postage

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                          Originally posted by 69594E5C464A452B0 link=1256465536/24#24 date=1256771195
                          Wrong and is purely conjecture. Place a lump of aluminium, copper or brass in some DI boiling water and see how long it takes to corrode. We are talking tens to hundreds of years - longer than the life of the machine Im guessing.
                          The standard corrosion testing prcedure is to place a 50x20x2mm strip of metal into the solution and reflux for a minimum of one month, remove, measure, weigh -->calculate corrosion rate in mm/year. We conduct these tests regularly.
                          True... But tis not Apples with apples..

                          A lump of copper in a static container of RO water and in a short time the osmosis with stablise.. They will reach a balance.. Then the usual shit happens... But the reaction in effect STOPS...

                          The issue here, is that in a coffee machine you are continually pasing the water across the metals... Thus the reaction is ongoing.. Then add Heat / Cold / Preasure and any number of other factors and the rate of transfer between the base metal and the RO water is magnified many times over...

                          * Same issue for treating Kidney issues -dialysis. Thus you need a continious flow of RO water to allow the minerals in the right quanties to be removed... Speed up the flow and the temp to manage the rate of removal...*

                          The issue here is the rate of change and ongoing addition of a fulid that is wanting to suck godies due to OMOSIS Vs static...

                          Put another way... Put crappy tap water in ya bucket / container and see what scale etc is deposited... Boil it in a jug and you will be hard pressed to visually see the deposit...

                          But do it with new water every time and the scale is built up due to the fresh minerals being added to the solution...

                          Static Vs Dynamic:

                          Wife 1 and 2 were static... :-?

                          Wife 3 is Dynamic... Much more realistic but interestng to manage...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                            Originally posted by 012E2725320D212E2127252D252E34400 link=1256465536/26#26 date=1256774408
                            Static Vs Dynamic:

                            Wife 1 and 2 were static...Huh

                            Wife 3 is Dynamic...Much more realistic but interesting to manage...Cheesy
                            How many wifes have you got AM ;D

                            KK

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                              Originally posted by 406F6664734C606F6066646C646F75010 link=1256465536/26#26 date=1256774408
                              Originally posted by 69594E5C464A452B0 link=1256465536/24#24 date=1256771195
                              Wrong and is purely conjecture. Place a lump of aluminium, copper or brass in some DI boiling water and see how long it takes to corrode. We are talking tens to hundreds of years - longer than the life of the machine Im guessing.
                              The standard corrosion testing prcedure is to place a 50x20x2mm strip of metal into the solution and reflux for a minimum of one month, remove, measure, weigh -->calculate corrosion rate in mm/year. We conduct these tests regularly.  
                              True...  But tis not Apples with apples..

                              A lump of copper in a static container of RO water and in a short time the osmosis with stablise.. They will reach a balance..  Then the usual sh!t happens...  But the reaction in effect STOPS...
                              Geez, and I thought this thread was over

                              The reaction stops quickly either way because of the passive layer that forms on the surface of the metal, these are oxides of the relative metals. Its not perfect but its damn good (paint is the best analogy I can give) which is why piping made from these metals lasts such a long time. Iron on the other hand forms a porous layer that allows water through to the fresh metal underneath hence the reason municipal water authorities maintian a pH of approx 8 but Im digressing.
                              The pH of 5 above is a gross overstatement, the only way you will get a pH that low with CO2 is if you actively bubble CO2 through the solution - its a technique we use often to adjust pH without using mineral acids, it also has the benefit of precipitating all heavy metals. Natural water will equilibrate at pH 6-6.5. (Tank/rain water is a good confirmation of this) But anyway, even at pH 5 the only thing that will happen is youll form a passive metal carbonate layer IF a passive layer has not already been established.

                              Originally posted by 406F6664734C606F6066646C646F75010 link=1256465536/26#26 date=1256774408
                              Put another way...  Put  crappy tap water in ya bucket / container and see what scale etc is  deposited...    Boil it in a jug and you will be hard pressed to visually see the deposit...

                              But do it with new water every time and the scale is built up due to the fresh minerals being added to the solution...
                              But with DI water there is nothing available from which scale can form In fact there is nothing available for anything - I find that quite funny, no I havent been drinking

                              Originally posted by 406F6664734C606F6066646C646F75010 link=1256465536/26#26 date=1256774408
                              Static Vs Dynamic:

                              Wife 1 and 2 were static...  :-?

                              Wife 3 is Dynamic...  Much more realistic but interestng to manage...  
                              You have an unique view on life ;D

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                                ps Ive got to hand it too you AM, for a person thats not a chemist youve mounted a fine charge Its more lucid than Ive encountered from chemists Ive worked with
                                It just struck me how logical youre arguments were, coming from your established basis, and I thought it should be noted 8-)
                                Now that the niceties are over we can put the gloves back on!

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