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  • #31
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    You guys should get together over a coffee.......or a glass of water or two!, i think you would enjoy each others company, lol..............enjoying the topic, keep it up boys!

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

      Originally posted by 4C7C6B79636F600E0 link=1256465536/29#29 date=1256786345
      ps Ive got to hand it too you AM, for a person thats not a chemist youve mounted a fine charge Its more lucid than Ive encountered from chemists Ive worked with
      It just struck me how logical youre arguments were, coming from your established basis, and I thought it should be noted 8-)
      Now that the niceties are over we can put the gloves back on!
      I respect your open comments... But resuse to accept the bait that you tossing out to me

      Err give me a second... Ok... Wife number 3 has been satisified...

      Now where were we...
      Originally posted by 4C7C6B79636F600E0 link=1256465536/28#28 date=1256782192
      AngerManagement wrote on Today at 11:00:
      Put another way...Putcrappy tap water in ya bucket / container and see what scale etc isdeposited...Boil it in a jug and you will be hard pressed to visually see the deposit...

      But do it with new water every time and the scale is built up due to the fresh minerals being added to the solution...


      But with DI water there is nothing available from which scale can form Smiley In fact there is nothing available for anything - I find that quite funny, no I havent been drinking Cheesy
      My issue here was NOT the scale, but the fact that ongoing fresh RO water will continue to leach minerals from the coffee machine as it never gets time to balance out..

      You previous comments as to how it might be tested... Is relevent for a static install..

      To actually evaluate the amount of material being leached and or thus having a negative impact on the base material - weekened... An issue with PRESSURE vessels.

      You would need to change your testing method... I am sure that you will see the logic as to a static container and a process that will balance out; Vs a dynamic situation where the base material is being subjected to a fresh and hungry fluid that is being presented to it... Add in some heat and even if the boiler or pipes manage it for some time... The heating elements will suffer at a faster rate...

      Now before you race off and do it ....

      I would be interested in what and how you intend to measure.... Remember "if it matters count it" as many assume and forget to count / measure the right things.

      Base product;

      1: Mass
      2: Size
      4: Skin
      5: Permeability- as in fluid mechanics and the earth sciences
      6: Stress testing - Brittle etc etc
      7: etc

      Oh and then collect and recover the said leached materials from ALL the RO water that has been in contact with the base metal.

      A: Flow rate and cycling of water temp and wait / static times yet to be defined.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

        [QUOTE=4F60696B7C436F606F696B636B607A0E0 link=1256465536/31#31 date=1256787474]
        Originally posted by 4C7C6B79636F600E0 link=1256465536/29#29 date=1256786345

        My issue here was NOT the scale, but the fact that ongoing fresh RO water will continue to leach minerals from the coffee machine as it never gets time to balance out..
        DI/RO water has no ions that can break through the passive layer to initiate the corrosion (what you refer to as leaching). This is the crux of my argument, with zero ions there are no/minimal opportunities to aid galvanic corosion or to start pinhole/crevice corrosion - the latter being the source of the "leaching". It doesnt matter whether the system is static or dynamic, less ions means less corosion/leaching.

        Do you find it amusing that we are arguing about merits/demerits of water neither of us use?

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

          [QUOTE=013126342E222D430 link=1256465536/32#32 date=1256816427]
          Originally posted by 4F60696B7C436F606F696B636B607A0E0 link=1256465536/31#31 date=1256787474
          Originally posted by 4C7C6B79636F600E0 link=1256465536/29#29 date=1256786345

          My issue here was NOT the scale, but the fact that ongoing fresh RO water will continue to leach minerals from the coffee machine as it never gets time to balance out..
          DI/RO water has no ions that can break through the passive layer to initiate the corrosion (what you refer to as leaching). This is the crux of my argument, with zero ions there are no/minimal opportunities to aid galvanic corosion or to start pinhole/crevice corrosion - the latter being the source of the "leaching". It doesnt matter whether the system is static or dynamic, less ions means less corosion/leaching.

          Do you find it amusing that we are arguing about merits/demerits of water neither of us use?
          Actualy I do use it but for other uses

          I also think that some terms and assumptions are also clouding our disscussion...

          However it has been interesting and I am assuming many may be following the thread and waiting for a blow up and or an oppertunity to comment ;D

          Anyway... Off to roast some South American beans for the Ballet this weekend.. I am in teh first Act and thus pre show and back stage afterwards; I will have a second role to play... Coffee Bitch

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

            I am going to change my angle of attack in an attempt to get you to change your point of view Trouble is Im extremely busy today and dont have time for a detailed post so Ill be back later. You can sit back and read it while drinking your freshly roasted beans ;D

            ps I use DI water for my radiator too

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

              Originally posted by 5F6F786A707C731D0 link=1256465536/34#34 date=1256867775
              I am going to change my angle of attack in an attempt to get you to change your point of view Trouble is Im extremely busy today and dont have time for a detailed post so Ill be back later. You can sit back and read it while drinking your freshly roasted beans ;D

              ps I use DI water for my radiator too
              Only after adding significant additives... I trust.

              DI for me only when running special experiments and the iron...

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                My daughter owns a beauty salon
                She uses distilled and or de-mineralised water in a steamer contraption when performing facials


                Even then I still need to de scale it on occasions as I can see through the glass mineral build up on the element

                KK

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                  Ok,
                  we both agree one one thing, I think , increasing temperature  and pressure increases the rate of chemical reactions which is why boilers are especially susceptible to damage.

                  Ok, now my change of attack Lets assume there is no passive layer, in contrast to what I stated earlier, and that the metals (copper, aluminium, brass, chrome) are freely available for reaction with any appropriate species in the water.
                  Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
                  All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.

                  Opps, wife is home, Ill must go or Ill never be back later

                  Sorry, ill continue.
                  First a warning, this is an alert. GEEK STUFF FOLLOWING. If chemistry bored you witless at school or you just hate geeky stuff move to another thread now

                  The nobel electronic state is what all atoms try to achieve, some have to give up a electrons to achieve it, others need to gain some. A match made in heaven when they pair up Some atoms do this with much more voracity than others and there is actually a table, the electrochemical series. This is a direct measure of the oomph that the element has when it performs it desired electron transfer. It is very important because it allows us to determine what reactions take place. Any element will react with another element lower in the table, forcing it to take the electrons it doesnt want, like a schoolyard bully in reverse ;D (the reaction actually occurs in the reverse direction to what is typed for the dominant element - its a chemists convention thing to put the electrons on the left side :). This is not all bad, some elements want to recieve electrons freely (the ones with +ve voltages) , to do this the reaction proceeds in the direction typed. As it involves electron movement there is a voltage that is generated when it does this - the more oomph the higher the voltage. Here it is below with the reaction involved for electron transfer (this is the geeky bit ).

                  Standard Aqueous Electrode Potentials at 25°C The Electrochemical Series
                  Element, Standard Electrode Reduction potential (Volts), HalfCell Reaction

                  Li, -3.05, Li+ + e- = Li
                  K, -2.925, K+ + e- = K
                  Ca, -2.87, Ca2+ + 2e- = Ca
                  Na, -2.714, Na+ + e- = Na
                  Mg, -2.37, Mg2+ + 2e- = Mg
                  Al, -1.66, Al3+ + 3e- = Al
                  Zn, -0.7628, Zn2+ + 2e- = Zn
                  Cr, -0.74, Cr3+ + 3e- = Cr
                  Fe, -0.44, Fe2+ + 2e- = Fe
                  Cd, -0.403, Cd2+ + 2e- = Cd
                  Ni, -0.25, Ni2+ + 2e- = Ni
                  Sn, -0.14, Sn2+ + 2e- = Sn
                  H2, 0.00, 2H+ + 2e- = H2
                  Cu, +0.337, Cu2+ + 2e- = Cu
                  I2, +0.535, I2 + 2e- = 2I-
                  Ag, +0.799, Ag+ + e- = Ag
                  Hg, +0.885, Hg2+ + 2e- = Hg
                  Br2, +1.08, Br2 + 2e- = 2Br-
                  Cl2, +1.36, Cl2 + 2e- = 2Cl-
                  Au, +1.50, Au3+ + 3e- = Au
                  F2, +2.87, F2 + 2e- = 2F-

                  (Remember, weve made the assumption that the metal is not protected by a passive layer and is free to react when possible.) Chrome and aluminium are now in a world of hurt. They are high in the list and will react with anything below them (which is just about everything ), turning the dissolved metal into solid metal and dissolving itself. Drinking water contains enough iron (from the pipes) that the chrome and aluminium in your espresso machine will dissolve themselves in a fairly short period of time. Of course there are other dissolved metals in water but iron is the most prolific of the detrimental elements by a considerable margin. None of this can occur with DI or RO water because they contain no dissloved elements

                  Now that Ive made you all worry, you can be assured that your machines are not rotting from the inside out

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                    Originally posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
                    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
                    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
                    Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                      Originally posted by 7F5E555552483B0 link=1256465536/38#38 date=1256888963
                      Originally posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
                      Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
                      All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
                      Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too.  
                      Yep and it is due to the charges and what level they like to be at..  Thus pure  water H2O is hungry and will pull and free radicals and other excess electrons from any thing that has a few spare or not bound...

                      What we forget is that we very rarly come in contact with a  water molecule..

                      Thus the reason why,  water is called the "universal solvent";  because it dissolves more substances than any other liquid. This means that wherever water goes, either through the ground or through our bodies, it takes along valuable chemicals, minerals, and nutrients.

                      In fact normal water and even some of the purest in nature - Deep in ice burges ( Some beer place has set up in iceland as they can use the nateral water to make supurbe beer... Miss spent childhood - Should have been coffee)

                      Problem is that Chemesrty = Maths...   and As I have continued to say 2 + 2 = 5

                      oooo  aaaarrrrrrr

                      A mate just droped this in my lap....  Ex Chemist from A QLD brewery...

                      He just as a few PHDd / Masters etc and now looking at the Brain and enhancements to the cochlear implant... He is also my fishing mate... But only drinks pablo  :-?  :-?  :  :P

                      From  a well known uni...  http://www.ag.unr.edu/


                      There are R/O systems that can treat the entire water supply for
                      the home instead of just what is used at one faucet.

                      It should be noted that these systems are extremely expensive. For the most part other far more cost-effective systems can be used to im prove water quality for the entire house.

                      Also, water treated by a reverse osmosis system that does not have a system to add some dissolved minerals back into the system (a rehardener) is corrosive to copper pipes and brass faucets.

                      Operation of a whole house system without a rehardener can result in severe corrosion of copper water lines and may add lead and copper into drinking water.

                      Now thats interesting... Good thing there is no Copper / Brass or Solder in any coffee machines...

                      Interesting... Same conclusion reached by others and identified in an earler post..

                      Now for those beans your sending me...   ;D

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                        Originally posted by 6B444D4F58674B444B4D4F474F445E2A0 link=1256465536/39#39 date=1256902972
                        Originally posted by 7F5E555552483B0 link=1256465536/38#38 date=1256888963
                        Originally posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
                        Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
                        All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
                        Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too.  
                        Yep and it is due to the charges and what level they like to be at..  Thus pure  water H2O is hungry and will pull and free radicals and other excess electrons from any thing that has a few spare or not bound...
                        Water doesnt wander around dissolving everything it comes into contact with. If a metal dissolves it becomes positivley charged (a cation) so there needs to be a negatively charged ion (anion) formed to take the donated electrons. Water cannot provide this, it is nuetral and will not accept a charge. So if water is totally devoid of dissolved substances it has no capability to dissolve metals.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                          Youve convinced me Bm....

                          Great information mate [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

                          Mal.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?


                            Unless Im mistaken, I havent seen much if anything about what affect all this chemistry has on whats in the cup

                            My Brita On-Tap has gone away for replacement and my wife and I detect an improvement in the coffee taste using tap water :

                            I realize the Brita doesnt remove minerals so it does nothing to protect the machine - but it does improve the taste of water but apparently not for coffee making.

                            So, my question is why use filtered water for coffee :-/


                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                              Originally posted by 5E797F78750C0 link=1256465536/42#42 date=1256933293
                              Unless Im mistaken, I havent seen much if anything about what affect all this chemistry has on whats in the cup  

                              My Brita On-Tap has gone away for replacement and my wife and I detect an improvement in the coffee taste using tap water  :

                              I realize the Brita doesnt remove minerals so it does nothing to protect the machine - but it does improve the taste of water but apparently not for coffee making.

                              So, my question is why use filtered water for coffee  :-/

                              Minerals in water have a large effect on taste. Im assuming the same holds true for coffee as does for beer (an area I have much more experience with than coffee ). You are after a balance, too much minerals and then water tastes metallic/harsh. Too few and the beverage is dull. In this sense ultra pure water is the extreme of too few. Im not recommending that you use ultrapure water, its just the pedant in me arguing against the assertion that it is bad for machines.

                              As an aside, I intend to experience the ultrapure water "flatness" of coffee. Its one thing knowing it but life is much richer if you experience it I have no concerns about running DI water through my sunbeam

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

                                Originally posted by 4B7B6C7E646867090 link=1256465536/43#43 date=1256937085
                                I have no concerns about running DI water through my sunbeam  
                                I too have a Sunbeam which has a built in filter.

                                Is there any advantage in my using the Brita as well  :-?

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