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  • A_M
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 7A747976617776180 link=1256465536/49#49 date=1256949168
    So from what I have read we are going to agree to disagree about the effect of "pure" water (RO etc) on the internals of a coffee machine but nobody should use it because it is a negative on taste of the resultant coffee, hope I have read it right.

    It is a fantastic discussion I love it when "the accepted wisdom" is challenged as there is much in the world that people accept because everyone says so (ie the world being flat).

    What are you trying to say... It is FLAT or we would fall off...

    AS to coffee machines..

    1: We all appear to agree that TASTE is important..

    2: Equipment maintenance is up to the user and any problems that might be had: with the supplier.  However the supplier also have a strong position and regardless of your perceptions / beliefs....  They will make the call if it comes to a disscussion as to if the unit has been used / maintained in the manner they recommend.

    How I treat my wife Vs how she wishes to be treated...  What I want Vs what she wants...  And I know who wins  

    Leave a comment:


  • blanyon
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    So from what I have read we are going to agree to disagree about the effect of "pure" water (RO etc) on the internals of a coffee machine but nobody should use it because it is a negative on taste of the resultant coffee, hope I have read it right.

    It is a fantastic discussion I love it when "the accepted wisdom" is challenged as there is much in the world that people accept because everyone says so (ie the world being flat).

    Leave a comment:


  • Brewman
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 67484143546B47484741434B434852260 link=1256465536/46#46 date=1256946701
    [

    1: Water with minerals / irons and other extras tastes GREAT  

    2: Some of the "extras" are not kind to our bodies and or equipment...  

    3: There are ways manage the un desirables without compromising TASTE or the EQUIPMENT.


    Now; did man (Armstrong) walk on the moon  :P
    True
    True
    True
    and No, everyone knows the US govt made the footage in a Nevada film studio to dupe the world into allowing them to continue arms proliferation for the fight against the cold war ;D ;D ;D

    Leave a comment:


  • Brewman
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Yes, this thread is getting us nowhere

    I have glossed over the dissolved gases (and many other things), I was wondering when it would raise its head. Ill just leave with the comment that you need special treatment to remove gases. Neither distilling, deioinsiation or RO will remove dissolved gases but they are also present untreated water that they have been produced from so they are all on the same foot in this area

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 0B2037203129282D24410 link=1256465536/45#45 date=1256941303
    OK, time for me to jump in with a few comments.

    As previously stated when this and similar discussions have occurred terms really must be defined. Despite several comments to this effect here yall have not done this. Hence youre most likely talking about different things when using the same terms.

    For purposes of this discussion Reverse Osmosis (RO) water refers to RO water produced with over-the-counter home RO units.

    Reverse Osmosis (RO) water != Pure water

    Reverse Osmosis water (I suspect the same is true for most Distilled, and De-ionized waters available to home users also.) is not pure water! There-for any discussion of the effects that pure water have are meaningless when discussing RO water!

    Pure water = H2O  [b]With nothing else present in the solution!

    The RO membrane will remove (most) dissolved solids. Among other things it does not remove dissolved gases! Ergo RO water is not pure water! Therefor any discussion of the reactivity of the H2O molecule is only part of the equation of the reactivity of RO water. To claim that RO water is non-corrosive/reactive because the H2O molecule has no free ion(s) is at best an uninformed comment and at worst disingenuous.

    So, with all this said is RO water bad for pipes and boilers made from such things as copper and brass and therefor bad for espresso machines? Yes.


    Java "Definitions matter!" phile
    Well put Java "with the clear mind" phile.

    1: Water with minerals / irons and other extras tastes GREAT  

    2: Some of the "extras" are not kind to our bodies and or equipment...  

    3: There are ways manage the un desirables without compromising TASTE or the EQUIPMENT.

    Any thing else just falls into a Conspiracy theory where no one wins...  :-*

    Now; did man (Armstrong) walk on the moon  :P

    Leave a comment:


  • Javaphile
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    OK, time for me to jump in with a few comments.

    As previously stated when this and similar discussions have occurred terms really must be defined. Despite several comments to this effect here yall have not done this. Hence youre most likely talking about different things when using the same terms.

    For purposes of this discussion Reverse Osmosis (RO) water refers to RO water produced with over-the-counter home RO units.

    Reverse Osmosis (RO) water != Pure water

    Reverse Osmosis water (I suspect the same is true for most Distilled, and De-ionized waters available to home users also.) is not pure water! There-for any discussion of the effects that pure water have are meaningless when discussing RO water!

    Pure water = H2O  [b]With nothing else present in the solution!

    The RO membrane will remove (most) dissolved solids. Among other things it does not remove dissolved gases! Ergo RO water is not pure water! Therefor any discussion of the reactivity of the H2O molecule is only part of the equation of the reactivity of RO water. To claim that RO water is non-corrosive/reactive because the H2O molecule has no free ion(s) is at best an uninformed comment and at worst disingenuous.

    So, with all this said is RO water bad for pipes and boilers made from such things as copper and brass and therefor bad for espresso machines? Yes.


    Java "Definitions matter!" phile

    Leave a comment:


  • Rusty
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 4B7B6C7E646867090 link=1256465536/43#43 date=1256937085
    I have no concerns about running DI water through my sunbeam  
    I too have a Sunbeam which has a built in filter.

    Is there any advantage in my using the Brita as well  :-?

    Leave a comment:


  • Brewman
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 5E797F78750C0 link=1256465536/42#42 date=1256933293
    Unless Im mistaken, I havent seen much if anything about what affect all this chemistry has on whats in the cup  

    My Brita On-Tap has gone away for replacement and my wife and I detect an improvement in the coffee taste using tap water  :

    I realize the Brita doesnt remove minerals so it does nothing to protect the machine - but it does improve the taste of water but apparently not for coffee making.

    So, my question is why use filtered water for coffee  :-/

    Minerals in water have a large effect on taste. Im assuming the same holds true for coffee as does for beer (an area I have much more experience with than coffee ). You are after a balance, too much minerals and then water tastes metallic/harsh. Too few and the beverage is dull. In this sense ultra pure water is the extreme of too few. Im not recommending that you use ultrapure water, its just the pedant in me arguing against the assertion that it is bad for machines.

    As an aside, I intend to experience the ultrapure water "flatness" of coffee. Its one thing knowing it but life is much richer if you experience it I have no concerns about running DI water through my sunbeam

    Leave a comment:


  • Rusty
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?


    Unless Im mistaken, I havent seen much if anything about what affect all this chemistry has on whats in the cup

    My Brita On-Tap has gone away for replacement and my wife and I detect an improvement in the coffee taste using tap water :

    I realize the Brita doesnt remove minerals so it does nothing to protect the machine - but it does improve the taste of water but apparently not for coffee making.

    So, my question is why use filtered water for coffee :-/


    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Youve convinced me Bm....

    Great information mate [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brewman
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 6B444D4F58674B444B4D4F474F445E2A0 link=1256465536/39#39 date=1256902972
    Originally posted by 7F5E555552483B0 link=1256465536/38#38 date=1256888963
    Originally posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
    Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too.  
    Yep and it is due to the charges and what level they like to be at..  Thus pure  water H2O is hungry and will pull and free radicals and other excess electrons from any thing that has a few spare or not bound...
    Water doesnt wander around dissolving everything it comes into contact with. If a metal dissolves it becomes positivley charged (a cation) so there needs to be a negatively charged ion (anion) formed to take the donated electrons. Water cannot provide this, it is nuetral and will not accept a charge. So if water is totally devoid of dissolved substances it has no capability to dissolve metals.

    Leave a comment:


  • A_M
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 7F5E555552483B0 link=1256465536/38#38 date=1256888963
    Originally posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
    Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too.  
    Yep and it is due to the charges and what level they like to be at..  Thus pure  water H2O is hungry and will pull and free radicals and other excess electrons from any thing that has a few spare or not bound...

    What we forget is that we very rarly come in contact with a  water molecule..

    Thus the reason why,  water is called the "universal solvent";  because it dissolves more substances than any other liquid. This means that wherever water goes, either through the ground or through our bodies, it takes along valuable chemicals, minerals, and nutrients.

    In fact normal water and even some of the purest in nature - Deep in ice burges ( Some beer place has set up in iceland as they can use the nateral water to make supurbe beer... Miss spent childhood - Should have been coffee)

    Problem is that Chemesrty = Maths...   and As I have continued to say 2 + 2 = 5

    oooo  aaaarrrrrrr

    A mate just droped this in my lap....  Ex Chemist from A QLD brewery...

    He just as a few PHDd / Masters etc and now looking at the Brain and enhancements to the cochlear implant... He is also my fishing mate... But only drinks pablo  :-?  :-?  :  :P

    From  a well known uni...  http://www.ag.unr.edu/


    There are R/O systems that can treat the entire water supply for
    the home instead of just what is used at one faucet.

    It should be noted that these systems are extremely expensive. For the most part other far more cost-effective systems can be used to im prove water quality for the entire house.

    Also, water treated by a reverse osmosis system that does not have a system to add some dissolved minerals back into the system (a rehardener) is corrosive to copper pipes and brass faucets.

    Operation of a whole house system without a rehardener can result in severe corrosion of copper water lines and may add lead and copper into drinking water.

    Now thats interesting... Good thing there is no Copper / Brass or Solder in any coffee machines...

    Interesting... Same conclusion reached by others and identified in an earler post..

    Now for those beans your sending me...   ;D

    Leave a comment:


  • Dennis
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Originally posted by 0B3B2C3E242827490 link=1256465536/37#37 date=1256887965
    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.
    Keep it up. You are now talking in a language even I can understand! And Im enjoying the debate going on here too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brewman
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    Ok,
    we both agree one one thing, I think , increasing temperature  and pressure increases the rate of chemical reactions which is why boilers are especially susceptible to damage.

    Ok, now my change of attack Lets assume there is no passive layer, in contrast to what I stated earlier, and that the metals (copper, aluminium, brass, chrome) are freely available for reaction with any appropriate species in the water.
    Forgive me if I state the obvious but Im going to assume no chemistry knowledge so that i dont inadvertently leave out any important points.
    All chemistry boils down to an exchange of electrons. The driving force is that there are certain very stable arrangements that the atoms try to achieve, the nobel electron state.

    Opps, wife is home, Ill must go or Ill never be back later

    Sorry, ill continue.
    First a warning, this is an alert. GEEK STUFF FOLLOWING. If chemistry bored you witless at school or you just hate geeky stuff move to another thread now

    The nobel electronic state is what all atoms try to achieve, some have to give up a electrons to achieve it, others need to gain some. A match made in heaven when they pair up Some atoms do this with much more voracity than others and there is actually a table, the electrochemical series. This is a direct measure of the oomph that the element has when it performs it desired electron transfer. It is very important because it allows us to determine what reactions take place. Any element will react with another element lower in the table, forcing it to take the electrons it doesnt want, like a schoolyard bully in reverse ;D (the reaction actually occurs in the reverse direction to what is typed for the dominant element - its a chemists convention thing to put the electrons on the left side :). This is not all bad, some elements want to recieve electrons freely (the ones with +ve voltages) , to do this the reaction proceeds in the direction typed. As it involves electron movement there is a voltage that is generated when it does this - the more oomph the higher the voltage. Here it is below with the reaction involved for electron transfer (this is the geeky bit ).

    Standard Aqueous Electrode Potentials at 25°C The Electrochemical Series
    Element, Standard Electrode Reduction potential (Volts), HalfCell Reaction

    Li, -3.05, Li+ + e- = Li
    K, -2.925, K+ + e- = K
    Ca, -2.87, Ca2+ + 2e- = Ca
    Na, -2.714, Na+ + e- = Na
    Mg, -2.37, Mg2+ + 2e- = Mg
    Al, -1.66, Al3+ + 3e- = Al
    Zn, -0.7628, Zn2+ + 2e- = Zn
    Cr, -0.74, Cr3+ + 3e- = Cr
    Fe, -0.44, Fe2+ + 2e- = Fe
    Cd, -0.403, Cd2+ + 2e- = Cd
    Ni, -0.25, Ni2+ + 2e- = Ni
    Sn, -0.14, Sn2+ + 2e- = Sn
    H2, 0.00, 2H+ + 2e- = H2
    Cu, +0.337, Cu2+ + 2e- = Cu
    I2, +0.535, I2 + 2e- = 2I-
    Ag, +0.799, Ag+ + e- = Ag
    Hg, +0.885, Hg2+ + 2e- = Hg
    Br2, +1.08, Br2 + 2e- = 2Br-
    Cl2, +1.36, Cl2 + 2e- = 2Cl-
    Au, +1.50, Au3+ + 3e- = Au
    F2, +2.87, F2 + 2e- = 2F-

    (Remember, weve made the assumption that the metal is not protected by a passive layer and is free to react when possible.) Chrome and aluminium are now in a world of hurt. They are high in the list and will react with anything below them (which is just about everything ), turning the dissolved metal into solid metal and dissolving itself. Drinking water contains enough iron (from the pipes) that the chrome and aluminium in your espresso machine will dissolve themselves in a fairly short period of time. Of course there are other dissolved metals in water but iron is the most prolific of the detrimental elements by a considerable margin. None of this can occur with DI or RO water because they contain no dissloved elements

    Now that Ive made you all worry, you can be assured that your machines are not rotting from the inside out

    Leave a comment:


  • Koffee_Kosmo
    replied
    Re: Tap water or distilled water in coffee machine?

    My daughter owns a beauty salon
    She uses distilled and or de-mineralised water in a steamer contraption when performing facials


    Even then I still need to de scale it on occasions as I can see through the glass mineral build up on the element

    KK

    Leave a comment:

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