Re: Consistent tamping
coming to this a bit late........
whats your distribution like?
how many times are you collapsing in each shot? are you mounding, edging or centralising your distribution? using a barista tool like a swerve or scottie? how much coffee are you taking out each time?
you might want to get a reference bean or blend and buy a few kg of it. get all your glasses warm, and your station set out, then pull shot after shot and vary your parameters each time, writing down what you changed and the effect in the cup. make sure youre cleaning stale coffee out of the mouth of the grinder chute.
to your actual question - the way you learn how a tamp feels repeated is when, when you have the same amount of coffee in the basket of the same humidity and hardness/fluffiness on the same day and of the same age, and the coffee pushes back on the tamper at the same pressure as it did the last time all those variables were the same.
One thing forum member HD has taught me is how much those innocent coffee beans change not just over weeks, but over minutes. In my usual home situation I go by the mental image of the shot I want to pull. By the time I drink the next shot, the parameters for a perfect shot will have changed by a collapse, a grind size, a dose weight and the coffee volume, as well as the shape of the extraction. Makes my head explode if I think about it, so I dont.
ACogs advice is fantastic.
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Re: Consistent tamping
OK, sorry but time is short, only read about half this...
For me, consistency is the key. Grind, dose (mound), tap twice on side of basket with tamp, level with finger, tamp, lock & load.
Usually use the same pressure, a firm push and a bit of a twist.
If you always use the same techniques you should in theory be able to produce something similar. Your OP says the 1st comes out ok, then the next 3 are not so good. Is this one after the other? Reason for asking is whether perhaps your machine might be suffering a loss of brew temp, so if the 1st comes out ok & the others taste not so good, maybe something needs adjusting up (and a good cooling flush so the 1st shot also remains good).
So if the problem is not temp, and the shots are not 1 after the other, its something else. As you say, it could be tamp pressure. But I have found I can still end up with a reasonable coffee with varying pressures in tamp, so long as its close. Gotta be tamping level or most of the extraction will be on one side of the basket, = blonding early.
Just scrolled up & saw machine, VBM super, so another factor is -
if the shots are not straight after each other, are you doing proper cooling flushes? When the machine hasnt been used for a while, remove the PF & open her up, listen to & watch the water bubble & steam away for a few seconds = too hot. If youre not cooling flushing after long idle times, the brew temp could be too hot, spoiling the shot.
Just floating some ideas out there, to see whether the problem might not be tamping.
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Re: Consistent tamping
Remember weight isnt everything, the density of a bean will dramatically change your volume/weight, i have some panama carmen that is twice as heavy for the same volume of some of my other SOs
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Re: Consistent tamping
hmmm interesting... I find that if i collapse, fill collapse, fill etc, i cant even fit the portafilter in the group head without slicing some coffee out... maybe if i grind coarser, collapse like the vid, i will be able to pack it all in? Or... grinding finer would make more sense if im trying to fit more in the basket...... *head..... spinniiiing..... :S*Its funny Simon but Im using a Synesso ridgeless double basket and if I dont do the Tap Tap thing as per the video, my shots are WAY too fast????
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Re: Consistent tamping
If you dont "Tap Tap" then you need to go finer.Originally posted by 7F4443584B59422C0 link=1260003568/38#38 date=1264402123My grind seems (by feel) to be fine enough and I only ever use the freshest of beans so Im not sure what my problem is???
Either way will work.
You just have to be consistent.
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Re: Consistent tamping
Its funny Simon but Im using a Synesso ridgeless double basket and if I dont do the Tap Tap thing as per the video, my shots are WAY too fast????
My grind seems (by feel) to be fine enough and I only ever use the freshest of beans so Im not sure what my problem is???
Im getting some help from a pro barista next month so Im hoping to sort it out. Grinding and Dosing are my biggest problem methinks.
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Re: Consistent tamping
Cheers! Ive tried the tapping on that video, found that it puts WAAAY too much coffee into the basket.. so i tried with two (or one) solid tap after filling the basket, then refilling, sweeping, and tamping, and found it produced an AMAZING shot! (btw, this got me about 19-20grams of ground coffee in the basket).
Am just trying to figure out what exact weight is a good weight to have in the basket, i tend to go nuts and like to measure every variable XD
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Re: Consistent tamping
Hi Simon,
There are any number of opinions about tapping while dosing it seems. As AM frequently says with espresso 2+2=5 a lot of the time. Some say tapping introduces another variable that makes consistent dosing more difficult while others use it Im sure to settle the dose in the basket.... See http://www.espressocompany.com.au/grinding-dosing-video.htm
Ive taken my cue from the video and have tried to use the tapping method. One reason for that is due to my manual Mazzer dosing quite unevenly into my basket.
As it stands, while I still have a long way to go, Im (generally speaking) very happy with my results now. Im not suggesting for a minute that my way is best or correct, Im saying its now working for me.
Cheers
Tony
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Re: Consistent tamping
I havent studied this too much... is there a certain number of taps that must be performed to properly fill the basket? Is it not properly packed and full of grounds if you just keep dosing into the basket, not tap, sweep level and tamp? ive seen different methods... i usually just fill the basket at least 3/4ish full, and tap the filter with my hand then fill till theres a mount, sweep level, sweep off grounds off the side bits, tamp and go.Originally posted by 6463627665637065767963170 link=1260003568/7#7 date=1260016549Thats because the best way to dose consistently - incidentally killing the distribution bird with the same stone - is to fill the basket until its full (ie. full at the edges and mounded up in the middle). You then tap the handle on the bench (or something) X* number of times.
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Re: Consistent tamping
I second that


What do you think of my question AM? Would there be an actual different coffee extraction between the two, even though the brew time and volume are the same between them?
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Re: Consistent tamping
I think the issue is really one of... Grind and Dose is complemented by a good tamp... But first and for most is FRESH BEANS ;DOriginally posted by 142F2833203229470 link=1260003568/32#32 date=1261624544IMHO and limited knowledge. Grind and dosing are more important than tamp pressure. What I have found however, is that tamping consistently is far easier using my new Pullman Barista Tamper / Synesso basket. Its easier to get a level tamp and I dont have to go around the edges to tamp as I did with my old tamper.
Its well worth the money.
Tony
PS: By the way, my Pullman is a convex model and it works beautifully.
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Re: Consistent tamping
IMHO and limited knowledge. Grind and dosing are more important than tamp pressure. What I have found however, is that tamping consistently is far easier using my new Pullman Barista Tamper / Synesso basket. Its easier to get a level tamp and I dont have to go around the edges to tamp as I did with my old tamper.
Its well worth the money.
Tony
PS: By the way, my Pullman is a convex model and it works beautifully.
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Re: Consistent tamping
I guess the general purpose of tamping is to compress the grinds closer together so that the water forced through it has to work to extract a proper quality/amount from the coffee.
According to good ol Wikipedia: "Increasing the tamping pressure will increase the brew time of a shot of espresso, and thus increase the extraction from the coffee - hence the need to maintain consistency."
Tamping pressure depends on the fineness of the grind (in terms of getting the right 25-30 second extraction)... but one question id like to pose: if one grinds finer and tamps with less pressure, will that equal the same flavour/body extraction (the exact same) as grinding coarser and tamping with more pressure (assuming that the extraction time is equal for both)?
So i guess tamp consistency in relation to grind fineness is the equation/method thats important... but im curious to see if theres an answer to my question... May do some research...
A level tamp to me is also important, just thinking of the consequences of a diagonal unperpendicular tamp, im sure that would create a sort of channeling effect...
My 2 cents
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Re: Consistent tamping
That sounds right. Have a search for the 5 cent piece technique for dose.Originally posted by 3F2A0F233F31223522500 link=1260003568/28#28 date=1261196142Im guessing I should dose slightly less but adjust to a finer grind. Am I on the right track?
Greg
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Re: Consistent tamping
You should see an impression of the showerscreen so you should be dosing more and leaving the grind as is for the moment. Once you get the dose about right then adjust the grind to achieve the pour you are after. There is a lot more detailed info in the forum with a bit of reading, goodluck grasshopper it is a wonderful journey you have started.
I really do need to read others posts better :-[
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