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  • #16
    Re: Extraction time and amount

    Originally posted by 232235352E2B223F470 link=1277455987/13#13 date=1277507969
    Now getting 60 ml in 28 secs.
    Just remember that in making coffee there is no absolute rules! The 50-60 in 25-30 using 14g with a 15kg Tamp is an idea of what produces a good espresso shot and is NOT definitive. Dont be afraid to try some variation but as Moto said above just change one thing at a time. Be led by your taste and what YOU LIKE as much as what you read.

    Watch going to long on the shot as you can over extract the coffee and this will give you a bitter flavour but if it tastes good and your running 30+ leave it alone

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    • #17
      Re: Extraction time and amount

      Originally posted by 7E51585A4D725E515E585A525A514B3F0 link=1277455987/14#14 date=1277512035
      1: Beans will still have a strong influence..

      I roast = I Know...  I do not always believe what I read.... Would like to... BUT!

      2: From the moment ya hit the brew switch (pre infusion is a variable - I ignore)

      3: No use starting from teh time ya see drips.. That may never happen is ya choke it :-)

      4: Depending on beans/grind/pre infusion/ dose/tamp and basket size/shape etc etc about 6 to 8 sec for drips to start to appear.


      Hence some might say 20/22 or 24 /25 sec from drips first appearing..  There are many variables.. Do not get caught up in numbers.. It is a slippery path and like some other stuff... Once ya start it is hard to get back on the road..


      Get to know what works for your system... Does not mean it wil be teh same for another machine/beans..
      Once again the voice of reason/logic.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Extraction time and amount

        Originally posted by 2324202F272D38282F26410 link=1277455987/15#15 date=1277514965
        Originally posted by 232235352E2B223F470 link=1277455987/13#13 date=1277507969
        Now getting 60 ml in 28 secs.
        Just remember that in making coffee there is no absolute rules! The 50-60 in 25-30 using 14g with a 15kg Tamp is an idea of what produces a good espresso shot and is NOT definitive. Dont be afraid to try some variation but as Moto said above just change one thing at a time. Be led by your taste and what YOU LIKE as much as what you read.

        Watch going to long on the shot as you can over extract the coffee and this will give you a bitter flavour but if it tastes good and your running 30+ leave it alone
        Your absolutely right BF, but why oh why does the mantra have to be constantly repeated, there must be thousands of posts in the archives conveying a similar message.
        I suspect AM is right, some (perhaps a lot) simply dont get it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Extraction time and amount

          I hope you are not inferring that I dont get it OS. I get it alright, whatever works for me. Trying to get some sort of base guide lines to go by seems totally pointless if there the end result is whatever works for you and your machine. Why not just say there are no rules and just keep playing until it works.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Extraction time and amount

            Originally posted by 676671716A6F667B030 link=1277455987/18#18 date=1277518374
            Why not just say there are no rules and just keep playing until it works.
            Because when one suggests that there may be other ways... Some can not manage chaos theory and start to implode....

            Originally posted by 676671716A6F667B030 link=1277455987/18#18 date=1277518374
            Trying to get some sort of base guide lines to go by seems totally pointless if there the end result is whatever works for you and your machine.
            For me; teh above is close to being the golden rule... But I and this approach, is seen as a bit out there and thus some can not cope..

            Every thing in context and thus the grey areas are so vast; it is almost any thing goes...

            However INTJs have issues with that... Thats why they make great chemists.. It is all about hard facts and no grey.. Where as anatomical and haematology is about the look and feel... It is about perception and sensing....

            Thus depending on what sort of a mind set you have ... How it is expressed / explained can have a significant impact on ones ability to grasp it.... Some will always want numbers.. The issue is that the numbers keep changing due to variables that can not always be clearly defined..

            *****************
            While I will and can use numbers and get back to first principles if ever needed... Why bother.. 240V is the RMS of a PTP voltage and toss in some second order maths and you can see and understand how 240V (equivalent dc) is reached.... Does it change any thing... In most cases NO.

            For me.. I use my senses and if any one of them suggest NO... Then I bin and start again.. Unless I am desperate.. And then I usually regret it afterwards






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            • #21
              Re: Extraction time and amount

              Originally posted by 7C7D6A6A71747D60180 link=1277455987/18#18 date=1277518374
              I hope you are not inferring that I dont get it OS. I get it alright, whatever works for me. Trying to get some sort of base guide lines to go by seems totally pointless if there the end result is whatever works for you and your machine. Why not just say there are no rules and just keep playing until it works.
              (there are no rules and just keep playing until it works. ) there ya go, I said it.
              Seriously though there are basics that it certainly pays to keep in mind, however getting to know your machine and grinder combination over a period of time along with their quirks is certainly the best teacher.
              I think one of the most valid (and oft ignored tips) is to only change 1 variable at a time and keep notes as to what you have done.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Extraction time and amount

                Making coffee is not about rules calling them guidelines to start with is closer to the truth. It is part science, part educated guess work and part practice and refinement of good technique, not to mention the gear and beans that will get you there in the end. That said experimental ideas are worth a go too and if you like it then that is fine too. You are the person that matters in what you are drinking not being told what to like by someone elses numbers and being told that is the only way to do it.

                The sorts of questions you asked initially gets asked more or less weekly (or more often) and unfortunately there is lots of misinformation given out around the net or at "coffee courses" or even spread by word of mouth like the "keep you beans in the fridge" rubbish. Like all good chinese whispers eventually the message finishes up wrong.

                Best bet is to have a good trawl around of the postings and older threads (learn to use the search function) take it all in use the internet bulldust filter as required and ask questions when you get stumped or need something clarified.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Extraction time and amount

                  Originally posted by 436C6567704F636C6365676F676C76020 link=1277455987/19#19 date=1277519440
                  Every thing in context and thus the grey areas are so vast
                  The main grey area that concerns me these days AM is on top of my head. ;D

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Extraction time and amount

                    Originally posted by 073B322A3F5E0 link=1277455987/22#22 date=1277519710
                    Originally posted by 436C6567704F636C6365676F676C76020 link=1277455987/19#19 date=1277519440
                    Every thing in context and thus the grey areas are so vast
                    The main grey area that concerns me these days AM is on top of my head.  ;D

                    I will be kind and say

                    You got grey hair developing Jon :
                    Thats a sign of maturity [not to be confused with senility]

                    KK

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Extraction time and amount

                      Originally posted by 477B726A7F1E0 link=1277455987/22#22 date=1277519710
                      Originally posted by 436C6567704F636C6365676F676C76020 link=1277455987/19#19 date=1277519440
                      Every thing in context and thus the grey areas are so vast
                      The main grey area that concerns me these days AM is on top of my head.  ;D
                      I am thinning and my daughter even said in FRONT of her mother that see could see  her mums thumb print  ;D

                      I did not go over well with MUM  :-X


                      OH... derrilex and all the others out there...

                      Assumptions... Yep Assumptions and they will get you every time..

                      1:  The guide that many refer to and is even documented in some Italian certification is about a volume that is extracted from a mass of ground beans (size of grinds not fully defined) in a a particular time using a particular basket size (shape and even the number and size of holes - I have seen referenced) and at a set temperature etc etc etc ...

                      Judges in coffee comps even look and use a timer to gauge the shot time and volume ???

                      The assumption here is that the equipment is the same and meets specific performances..

                      A: Is your equipment in full compliance with the requirements -- May be may be not...

                      There is another Assumption that people are making and that is even mentioned in the Italian documentation... It also has a blood big impact on the volume and time if it is not correct and or consistent..

                      Derrilex...   Let me know where ya gauge is sitting in relation to ya sweet spot check on the EM6910..


                      YEP...

                      9 bar is the other assumption that many make... However as many of us know only to well...  Many systems are set  above that common reference value.. Be they an Appliance or even prosumer equipment..  Not un common to have prosumer gear landing in Australia and running at 12 or 12.5 bar..

                      Ya think that extra pressure might have an influence on the tamp and grind size you r trying so hard to get right on ya home system and why; when you use another machine, it does not work out the way you expected.....

                      Have spoken about the Sunbeam sweet spot since day one...  But people still dont get it and many still think it has to be up there in the red... It does not, it is about the dose and the tamp to get the right shot..  

                      Beans are assumed as being the best there is along with a top grinder....  ;D  


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Extraction time and amount

                        Originally posted by 547079797A7A4054706C72701F0 link=1277455987/23#23 date=1277520121
                        You got grey hair developing Jon
                        Its well and truly developed mate.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Extraction time and amount

                          Originally posted by 08272E2C3B042827282E2C242C273D490 link=1277455987/24#24 date=1277521786
                          Beans are assumed as being the best there is along with a top grinder...
                          Assumptions... Yep Assumptions and they will get you every time..

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Extraction time and amount

                            Sweet spot ???? what are you talking about. Should I do a search ?

                            Nah only gaggin ;D

                            AM, ss is 11 and shot pull is 1. Slightly different to my first 6910 which was 12 and 1.30

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Extraction time and amount

                              Originally posted by 38392E2E353039245C0 link=1277455987/27#27 date=1277524057
                              Sweet spot ???? what are you talking about. Should I do a search ?
                              Ya had me going there :-)

                              Well here is teh kicker...


                              If ya run a Sunbeam 58mm double floor basket in a machine that has a group head gauge...

                              And that gauge has been validated as correct... Guess what.. You will see some interesting readings...

                              We were running a Prosumer machine that was looking like it was at 12 bar.... Put the Sumbeam basket in and presto.. 10.2bar... Yep teh opv did not get to cut in a teh calibrated hole in teh sunbeam double basket kicks of at about 10 bar.. And sprays like crap at 10.2.

                              NOTE: Assumption is only a clean never been used Sunbeam double floor basket

                              I then went and did some further testing and even put gregs gauge on two of the Em69xx units I have in teh shed..

                              In effect.. The SS could be assumed to give a position on teh gauge of equivalent to about 10bar


                              Thus it could be assumed with some level of confidence, that your running higher than 10.2 bar @ a gauge reading of 1:00

                              (Ohoooo 9 bar and those magic numbers )

                              Remember teh EM69xx does not have an OPV as such... Thus, getting teh gauge right is about managing the Tamp / Dose and Beans..

                              While I never liked going under teh so called SS... I must admit I was always happier at about that reading on teh gauge or just a bit above... I also know that at work.. They tend to be on the SS or just under...

                              Also tended to go for about 50 - 55ml in about 25sec and found that gave good a good cup for the PNG beans...

                              As another posted said teh other day..

                              Much better once they went finer and lowered the dose..

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Extraction time and amount

                                Ok. So Im now going to try shooting for the sweet spot and see what happens.

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