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Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Originally posted by 616B6863647E73666F640A0 link=1291162125/24#24 date=1291331710
Wouldnt that defeat the purpose of making the process mechanical in the first place?
I dont believe so.
The purpose is to make the process more repeatable and percise. And to let you fine tune the variables with more accuracy and consistency. And since these adjustments are necessary due to environmental factors and differences in the raw product, it is best that they are performed by an experienced human...at least for now
I actually should have titled this thread "..take Man out of equation...for only the bits where he (or she) introduces unwanted variances to the process"
But if I did, it would have sounded pretty stupid!
Very thoughtful response GrahamK, and if you were partially defending my proposal then thanks!
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Sometimes good ideas and changes are bourne out of what many others may have knocked back. Lateral thinking can lead to innovation, although the resultant innovation may be a far cry from the original thought. Its what the initial ideas lead to that sparks the innovation not necessarily the idea itself. But to get there you need to allow the ideas to be presented first, and not cut them off at the knees.
Quite often on these posts it is postulated that because someone has not thought of it before means it does not stand a chance. But by allowing the ideas to get out there, and then going back through them afterwards without all the emotion that may often accompany the discussion, (and of course make interesting reading), and logically discarding some of them and taking others to the next dimension sets the seeds for innovation.
Lateral thinking using these types of techniques are of course De Bono and Tony Buzan territory, but they are useful.
So while my first reaction was probably also along the lines of it being difficult to automate the "art" of the espresso, much of it was probabaly bourne out of a natural fear of losing something or of change. To some degree that was one of the reasons it took me so long to start roasting. Knowing that the "Big Guys" use all sorts of technology to ensure the roast is exactly as prescribed by measuring bean density, moisture, roast levels etc. I did not think I could match them.
Is that not the same for Espresso making? Although Im quite sure economics will also play a big part.
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Originally posted by 4F404C5A484F4F2D0 link=1291162125/18#18 date=1291273426
So youre saying, manually work out the dose and grind, and the tamp pressure, then programme the machine to do that for the next x hours until you retune it via a manual process?
Yes.
Why not?
And why couldnt you make the adjustments to the machine as often as you make adjustments with the traditional process?
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Originally posted by 7255515E6F72555142300 link=1291162125/21#21 date=1291289060
Luxury, I dreamt of having 16K, I had to buy 6116 ram chips one at a time [2k x 8], it took a couple of months to get to 16k of ram!
I waited for the new model cause the old one was only 4k.
Originally posted by 7255515E6F72555142300 link=1291162125/21#21 date=1291289060
If the freedom and profitability of the western world depended on the existence of high quality automated espresso equipment we would see some very quickly.
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Originally posted by 566A776C666770656D66020 link=1291162125/20#20 date=1291285171
I bought my first computer in 1980.
It had a total of 16k of memory. Yes I said 16k.
Luxury, I dreamt of having 16K, I had to buy 6116 ram chips one at a time [2k x 8], it took a couple of months to get to 16k of ram!
If the freedom and profitability of the western world depended on the existence of high quality automated espresso equipment we would see some very quickly.
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Originally posted by 18001209080F0D00150807610 link=1291162125/16#16 date=1291265035
To argue against the ability of new technology to make better coffee is equivalent to saying that someone with an accurate scale to measure coffee grinds will never be able to make coffee as good as someone who just uses intuition and feel to artistically judge if they put the optimum amount in the basket.
Exactly!
Ill put up my non-weighing plus intuition (experience really) against some geek with a set of scales and an instruction manual.
New technology has been around every year for the last 100 years or more since the first espresso machines were made.
If it were possible for technology to make a better coffee it has had more than enough time to do so.
Compare this: During the period of the American Civil War, gun technology progressed from single shot muzzle loaded muskets with a range of 50 metres to self loading repeating rifles with modern metal casing bullets with a range of at least 200 metres.
That was a massive leap forward in technology in a very short period of time.
I bought my first computer in 1980.
It had a total of 16k of memory. Yes I said 16k.
Here we are only 30 years later and look how far computers have come.
Lets compare to flight.
Wright brothers first flight was in December 1903.
Less than 66 years later man walks on the moon.
First espresso machine 1901.
Here we are 109 years later and no equivalent of the moon landing yet.
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Interesting.
Im sure I read something recently about a steam wand (and associated bits) that will automatically cut out at a pre-set temperature...or was I dreaming?
I imagine by using a Scace you could create a variety of profiles for every coffee used on any given day post roast and even factor in weather conditions, grinder setting, etc. then store this information and have a computer run the espresso machine.
You only need to look at Andys roasting software to grasp the idea.
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
So youre saying, manually work out the dose and grind, and the tamp pressure, then programme the machine to do that for the next x hours until you retune it via a manual process?
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Oh boy, so many are mis-understanding what I meant!
The bit about coffee making being an art is a good point, and a valid argument in my opiniion against using high-tech aids in the coffee making process. The bits about "mass production is no good" and "machines cant replace humans" frankly have nothing to do with what I was originally suggesting.
To argue against the ability of new technology to make better coffee is equivalent to saying that someone with an accurate scale to measure coffee grinds will never be able to make coffee as good as someone who just uses intuition and feel to artistically judge if they put the optimum amount in the basket. ??? Who said you cant use new technology WITH your intuition ???
Peace brothers and sisters
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Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
You can paint by numbers, but youll never be a Monet.
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Originally posted by 6E697C6A67715739313131080 link=1291162125/1#1 date=1291163950
Look at pizza, baked goods, beer and a host of other things.
All of these have a mass produced, consistent version that you can buy, or you can get it from an artisan who takes care and usually is much more hands on, or you can do it yourself.
Well said.
In a former life I used to work for a large pizza chain.
Every topping was measured, weighed or counted and you were even told where to place the slices of pepperoni.
Consistent?
Yes.
The best you could do?
No.
The idea was for consistency and to avoid waste from over-topping.
I made a "super supreme" once with less topping that tasted better.
On another occasion I was out delivering when the bosss wife called to say they were having surprise visitors for lunch and asked him to ask me to make some pizzas that he could bring home when he finished his morning shift.
He told her I was out and offered to make them himself.
She emphatically told him to bugger off as as she wanted me to make them.
Remember, he was the store manager and I was but a lowly driver.
But she knew who (with the same ingredients) made the better pizza.
P.S. I hate the taste of supermarket pizza. So....sterile, cardboardy.
Originally posted by 71697B60616664697C616E080 link=1291162125/6#6 date=1291175719
I believe this path is inevitable, and if it means that one day I can walk into an everyday food outlet and not shudder at the thought of ordering a coffee from the barely trained staff using their dormant coffee machine then Ill be happy.
Dream on sunshine! Everyday food outlets dont give a fig.
Originally posted by 7B6B67677C69576F6964080 link=1291162125/11#11 date=1291243755
If the "art of espresso" is really that, an art
I agree.
Let me give a different example using another art I know something about.
My martial art - karate.
Who thinks they could learn karate from a book?
Im quite prepared to challenge any book learned karateka in the ring to see if their "by the book" process can win over hands on learnin.
(Use the force Luke)
Re: Surely we need to take Man out of the equation...
Originally posted by 67525F586C705C55555656330 link=1291162125/9#9 date=1291178850
Hmm... Take the art out of coffee and it loses a whole heap of its allure as far as I am concerned.
Great point, and thanks for understanding what Im on about (again, let me re-iterate, Im not saying to replace human intuition with a machine ).
When you talk about coffee making being an art then it all makes sense. The more manual craft involved the better! And I do agree, thats where most of the allure is - thats what got me hooked! In fact I love the process of making a coffee as much as drinking it. I dare say that if I had an automated machine I wouldnt drink as much coffee. I still dont like being served bad coffee though....Too bad I guess.
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