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Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

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  • Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

    Hi All,

    Something thats bothered me about the most basic instructions in defining your grind is the maxim 25-30 mls  in 25-30 seconds.

    Seems pretty straight forward right? But, reading through various threads on various sites, including this one, right down to the instructions that accompanied my GPP, Ive noticed a startling inconsistency and, well frankly, bad science.

    The received knowledge here appears to be this:

    1. Lift the lever, pour 25-30 mls (including the crema).

    2. Adjust the grind until it pours in approx 25 seconds.

    3. Time future shots by stopping at the very first sign of blonding.



    Wheres the argument then?

    Well, to start with when does this shot start? Some insist as soon as you lift the lever. Others, when the "pour" begins after pre-infusion.  

    Theres no room for debate. On the Giotto, were talking a difference of 6-7 seconds. Ample time to ruin a shot. It certainly matters.

    Next we ask: how do measure 25mls - does that include the crema?

    The stock answer on that is "yes." But from any empirical standpoint, thats not going to cut it, no matter who taught it to you in the first place. Its bad science. Its even bad economics. Sorry.

    Measuring to the point of crema will always be wrong. When your beans are fresh (even moreso for some roasts) you will end up grinding too coarse. And/or as the beans age, you will end up with an over-extracted pour. On top of that as the crema settles, your espresso proper may end up as little as 12 mls of extract.

    In fact, its hard to think of an instance where measuring the crema point could go right for you.

    So its my contention that the policy should be this:

    1. Time the pour from the sight of the first drop of extract.
    2. Measure under the crema.


    Whether 25mls in 25 seconds remains the yardstick is another matter, but I would contend it is.

    Finally, the issue of how to recognize blonding.

    Im going to call shenanigans on this one too. I cant for the life of me pick whats supposed to be blonding with any consistency. Heck with some beans it looks blond from the first drop.  If I relied on that to stop every shot, Id be a nervous wreck.

    Over to you.

    Lance




  • #2
    Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

    I just let my eye and palate do the work...

    25-30 in 20 is a starting point, not the end point ;-)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

      Thats actually not true and dodging the issue.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

        Originally posted by 2F020D00062F0A0D08630 link=1293055491/0#0 date=1293055491
        So its my contention that the policy should be this:

        1. Time the pour from the sight of the first drop of extract.  
        Oh boy... Then some of my shots might take  10min to start if I have choked the machine  ;D  Would I wait for the first drop... NO way  

        Time starts as per the flick of the lever / push of a button.  It is about contact time with the water.


        In addition is is about whats in the cup and not the maths and numbers (2mcm has it 100% - He was not dodging but assuming a basic understanding) .

        2 + 2 = 5 for great coffee  8-)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

          Yep, and there you have it. 101 of coffee making, buggered right from the starting gun.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

            Originally posted by 406D626F69406562670C0 link=1293055491/4#4 date=1293055882
            Yep, and there you have it. 101 of coffee making, buggered right from the starting gun.
            So long as you realise B4 you try to find a publisher

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

              Originally posted by 634E414C4A634641442F0 link=1293055491/2#2 date=1293055715
              Thats actually not true and dodging the issue.
              No probs Lance....My palate and eye v your stop watch any day, any time :

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

                Ill just leave it at this: if at any point you have a stopwatch and a measuring cup, and you are measuring to the top of the crema and are uncertain where the pour starts, and then you cop-out by saying its not meant to be about objectivity its completely about taste, then I think youre floundering and should not be attempting to advise others.

                Sorry, but someone had to call bullshit on this.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

                  Originally posted by 2E030C01072E0B0C09620 link=1293055491/7#7 date=1293056575
                  Sorry, but someone had to call bullsh!t on this.
                  Well Im glad you realised that youre talking bullsh!t.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

                    If your pour doesnt start in 10 seconds, then you immediately know your grind is too fine, so I think youre just being difficult for the sake of it there.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

                      All right boys and girls...

                      Enough of the pre x-mass cheer...

                      Lancelot Link, you already changing your tune. You state it starts as soon as the first drip appears and now you defining the time from the button/lever being activated to the appearance of the first drip ?

                      It appears that you want a Black and White answer !!!


                      Sorry.  The Beans, grind, Tamp and Group pressure all have a direst impact on the flow rate. Thus it is a GREY area and about an objective (What ends up in the cup) and guide lines as to where to start from and what to work to.

                      If your that much of an expert, then why come to a Coffee forum - Ask a number of questions full of miss information and then refute any and all comments.

                      In addition you refer to Science yet clearly demonstrate a lack of a true scientific and evidence based research. Please dont confuse an OCD with real science and making great coffee.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

                        Originally posted by 7C7B6E787563452B2323231A0 link=1293055491/8#8 date=1293056907
                        Well Im glad you realised that youre talking bullsh!t.
                        Originally posted by 567B74797F567374711A0 link=1293055491/9#9 date=1293056909
                        If your pour doesnt start in 10 seconds, then you immediately know your grind is too fine, so I think youre just being difficult for the sake of it there.
                        Eggspurt alert!

                        Tell that to the owner of a Slayer grasshopper :

                        Anyboby else planning on dining on goose this Saturday?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

                          Not only is it amusing to see the word science in a post where there is nothing resembling it but when received wisdom is bandied about on old and perhaps superceeded methods... Ya gotta wonder what the heck is going on in that head...

                          People have for years weighed their shots and presented as extraction ratios, measured pump on and flow time... Is this a poor attempt at trolling or just a poor misguided individual?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

                            Originally posted by 5B544C5D4C494C2D0 link=1293055491/12#12 date=1293057707
                            Is this a poor attempt at trolling or just a poor misguided individual?
                            Maybe both plus OCD...

                            Then again the posts have been tame fo a while and I have dropped the ball as to generating a fluster of posts  ;D

                            However, I had to jump and support 2mcm on this one as the bait was too good to miss.

                            Hock (sic) line and sinker   :P


                            PS. look at the subject..   "how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?"


                            25 ml of Course - Trick question  ;D

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Bad science: how much is 25mls in 25 seconds?

                              Originally posted by 36392130212421400 link=1293055491/12#12 date=1293057707
                              Is this a poor attempt at trolling or just a poor misguided individual?
                              Trolling I think.
                              Oh well, it must be fun for them.

                              Comment

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