Tell the Barista what you want

[richard_s Member Find all posts View Profile Close richard_s]

In April my wife and I went on a holiday via the Murray NSW and Vic, Barossa, Adelaide, Fleurieu Peninsula, Limestone Coast, Mt Gambier, Portland, Great Ocean Road then returning to the Blue Mountains via Wagga.
Of course there was a need to have a good coffee at least once a day. Sometimes we got what we wanted and sometimes we were quite disappointed.   
It took a while to realise that I was part of the problem.   What I am getting at is the communication issue between the customer and the Barista.
How can we expect to get what we want if the Barista has only a general idea of our expectations? 
There are problems in communication, including
1) Direct communication with the Barista is available only some of the time
2) Is the customer (me) capable of stating what he wants in language that is (or should be) universally understood by the Barista (or order taker)?
When I can get to talk directly with the Barista the conversation usually goes like this after any pleasantries.
Me “We would like two flat white coffees served in a cup (pointing at standard ceramic cup warming on the top of the machine). We really like to taste the coffee. You would know the coffee you use. Should we have a single or double shot?”
Barista “Our coffee is pretty strong a single shot should suit”. Sometimes a barista has suggested he will pull an extra shot in a glass and we can add that if required.   We have always used the extra shot! Baristas are loathe to suggest that we need a double shot to get a good taste of his coffee. That is understandable.
On the trip we probably ordered coffee about forty times.  It took some time for it to sink in but to get close to our requirements we needed to order double shots. About 70% the time the result was very fair to very good. Other times the result was poor (in our view) due to incompetence of the Barista or other unknown factors.
What are we looking for?
I’ll do my best to describe our perfect cup.
It has an overall lively full-bodied flavour with an excellent crema. It has the luxurious “mouth feel” of milk with good microfoam. The temperature of the coffee is hot enough so you can linger for maybe 3 minutes or so and the coffee stays pleasantly warm. The coffee should be approachable instantly.
At home I make a form of Ristretto by limiting the quantity of coffee extracted, typically extracting for 20 seconds only. I get a fair bit of variation due to the limits of the grinder I use, principally.  (Shortly I will be upgrading. I have both grinder and machine, ordered.) 

I think there is a better chance of getting a higher percentage of coffee to our taste by ordering what I do at home. That is, I should order double shot Ristretto flat white.
I hesitate doing this because it sounds pretentious and how will this be interpreted by the Barista directly or through communication with the order taker?
The article I picked up through a post somewhere here tells a story that relates. 
http://bit.ly/kz1qXr

[blanyon Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close blanyon]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

When you hit the road you will struggle to find coffee that isnt made by a button pusher and so your quest for an answer to this question is not going to easy. What you are after I agree shouldnt be so hard but when workers (generally) arent passionate about their product and even when they are their training isnt as good as it should be this isnt going to add up to the coffee you are chasing.

I am a fan of the coffee you order, what my order generally starts with is a question about what the base for the coffees are. The answer to that dictates what I order, if it is knowledgeable then I ask for a double ristretto base, if I get a "dunno" look then I generally ask for tea!! ;D

Good luck with your quest for great coffee, you should have dropped me a pm to let me know you were coming through wagga I would have fixed you up with a good coffee.

Brett

[wholeshotalove Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close wholeshotalove]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

The last time I tried to order a double ristretto flat white in the country.....

"Hi, can I have a double ristretto flat white please?"
"Sorry, a what?"
"A double ristretto flat white"
"Huh?"
"A double ristetto flat white"
"Whats a rusteto"
"A ristretto"
"A rusesto"
"A ristretto"
"Sorry, we dont sell them"
"A ristretto is like a short espresso, about 20mls in size"
"Ah, yes, we sell expresso"
"Great! Well, I would like a double espresso then please, but can you just stop the extraction a little shorter, when it is around 40 mls in volume"
"Let me just check with the boss to see what button I need to press for a double expresso"
"Ok, no worries"
(turns to boss)
"What button do I press for a double expresso?"
(Boss answers) "A what?

[emckissock Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close emckissock]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

Good one wholeshotalove ;D

Reminds me of an occasion a couple years back at a cafe/convenience store in rural Victoria

Me: "Two flat whites please"
Employee looks blank, pauses then says "whats a flat white"
Me: Tea with just a dash of milk.

[beanflying Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close beanflying]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

In April my wife and I went on a holiday via the Murray NSW and Vic, Barossa, Adelaide, Fleurieu Peninsula, Limestone Coast, Mt Gambier, Portland, Great Ocean Road then returning to the Blue Mountains via Wagga.

And you didnt stop in for a coffee 

The single shot thing is a pet peeve of mine a single shot in a cup/glass around the 200ml mark is dishwater and even worse is when you finish up with a short pour single  :P.

My preferred brew to customers starts at 1 1/2 shots made from double baskets and if I get asked for a strong coffee a full double. Single shots into 200s are for "grannichinos" not coffee shops regardless of blend unless they are using an Italian dark roasted robusta blend in which case I will have a juice please.

Asking for a Ristretto in a country cafe/bakery or even just a run of the mill city cafe is pointless and can be seen by people you are trying to prove your superior coffee knowledge. This whole Ristretto thing compared to a "normal espresso" is a topic all of its own.

[richard_s Member Find all posts View Profile Close richard_s]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

beanflying,
Damn.   
I have learned quite a lot here in recent days.  One thing I will do in future is let it hang out where I am travelling.
Its too late for the trip thats gone.
I did enjoy good coffee at Port Fairy.   Bella Claire Deli served excellent coffee to complement a very good light lunch.    I had ordered double shots for my wife and I. The date was Friday April 15.
You have confirmed what I was thinking. Ordering Ristretto is seen to be pretentious even if all you are doing is trying to be specific.  When the Barista is not flat out I have asked for 1and 1/2 shots if this seemed a good idea. 
Talking about double shots there seemed to be a dilution fetish in many South Australian places.
The vessel of immediate choice at the machine when a double shot is ordered is a giant mug that ensures very few coffee molecules can be tasted.
wholeshotalove and who me?
My wife and were laughing out loud reading your stories.  Rippers!
;D

[Thundergod Sleep is overrated Find all posts View Profile Close Thundergod]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

I too would like to be able to order a flat white based on a double ristretto.

Unfortunately few places speak that language.

[Blue_House Member Find all posts View Profile Close Blue_House]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

I too would like to be able to order a flat white based on a double ristretto.

Unfortunately few places speak that language.

Gee, thats how we do all of our milk coffees.

[Fresh_Coffee . Find all posts View Profile Close Fresh_Coffee]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

An opinion from the other side:

Standards are set for a reason and in my own coffee house all brews except mugs are based on a single dose unless the client asks for a double.

Newcomers to cafe and coffee business seem for whatever reason (discussed elsewhere) to advocate ristrettos as "their standard".  Established business seems more likely to stick with the actual espresso standard. In my opinion a ristretto manipulates the character and profile of a coffee rendering it incomparable to the same coffee made into a standard espresso. As already stated there are reasons for having standards. Baristas in barista comps that brew and serve ristrettos where stadard espressos are called for in the comp rules, lose valuable points for the sake of trying to be "fashionable" in coffee.

A ristretto used as a base for a standard milk coffee will render it far too milky ergo the need for a double restretto....when  a standard espresso will suffice.

In this market where only a minute percentage of the population are CoffeeSnobs, my own experience is if you automatically give people a double, those likely to complain will usually say it is too strong...

A good barista should be able to make a great standard coffee with a single dose......ours certainly does, and you will find that a lot depends on the baristas skill with the milk and not just with the coffee.

In business if you automatically give everyone a double you use more coffee than necessary without recouping the extra cost. Great for the coffee supplier  but not if you happen to be the cafe owner....it is therefore a management and business and income decision to automatically do double shots in coffees.

When you walk into a cafe that you have never visited you dont know what kind of attitude and reception you are going to receive from the people behind the counter. Therefore if you tell them how you want them to make your coffee there is a 50% chance that it wont be well received, eliciting a negative experience.

You dont know how they make "their standard" coffee and it may be perfectly good without you having to ask for anying "special" or different to their norm. Essentially you dont know this until after you experience what they will serve to you and only then will it be appropriate to respectfuly approach them with your comment....

And of course double shots and ristretto portions are really not the issue, training is the issue, but you have to be dealing with people that realise its value.

My comment and opinion on all this then is, you cant tell the barista what you want until after you have had his coffee. And at that point you can make an informed decision on whether it is actually worth the trouble.

I usually dont buy coffee when travelling for the very reason that you cant seem to get a good standard coffee anywhere and again, thats training to a proper standard across the cafe industry. On the one hand the situation is better than it used to be, but on the other it seems thee is no shortage of "coffee fashionistas" going all out not to have one (a standard).

Go the annual round of aasca barista comps about to start again shortly.

Rgdz,
Attilio
very first CS site sponsor.

[beanflying Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close beanflying]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

A good barista should be able to make a great standard coffee with a single dose......ours certainly does, and you will find that a lot depends on the baristas skill with the milk and not just with the coffee.

Out of interest what sized cups are you running with singles? 160s or 200ish?

[Fresh_Coffee . Find all posts View Profile Close Fresh_Coffee]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

Hello T,

from memory they are around 180 and owing to the discussion I will be measuring again accurately tomorrow just to see, as its been a while.

(by the way not on topic but.....weve just had a similar occurence to "your" GJs / K10 but investigation pointed the finger squarely at variable dosing by the main barista after which the problem stopped. There is no voodoo inside a coffee grinder ).

Rgdz,
A.

[Fresh_Coffee . Find all posts View Profile Close Fresh_Coffee]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

FYI

Our cups accurately measure up to 160 mls of drinkable liquid. That is, not 160 mls to the brim, but at about a quarter inch down from the brim.

Rgdz,
A.

[beanflying Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close beanflying]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

Thanks Attilio makes my shot and a half standards into 8 oz takeaways seem near a similar ratio then 

On the K10 I need to go back to see how he is getting on and if anything was ever found.

[richard_s Member Find all posts View Profile Close richard_s]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

Attilio,
Thanks for an enlightening statement from the "other side". To some extent it puts me in a quandary. My past experience indicates that if I simply order a flat white (cup) there is a 70% chance the coffee will be not to my liking (short on flavour).
If I could know that the Barista is well qualified I would be inclined to run with a "standard" flat white and be happy with the result probably. Very few coffee shops display anything regarding the accreditation or awards of the Barista on deck. 
Suppose I order a flat white without additional comment and I dont like it. I dont feel it is worth making an issue over it. If I am asked I will respond.
If I can get to talk with the Barista about the nature of the coffee being used in general terms and if appropriate, state my preference  for a rich tasting brew, I am on the way to something good.
On some occasions the Barista will even tell me he will do 1 and 1/2 shots. I have never had a Barista suggest a double shot! 
I respect the Barista profession. I wish people were not allowed to operate machines without good training.

[beanflying Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close beanflying]

Re: Tell the Barista what you want

;D Formal Training is a can of worms. Would rather have a coffee made by someone who understands and loves what they do than anyone who got a bit of paper to make wages.

The reason I asked Attilio about his cup size is that it is one of the biggest problems at a lot of the average cafes. Your average cafe favours circa 200ml cups so the customer feels like they are getting a good sized drink only to abomonate the drink by using a single shot.

So where I am heading here is that in spite of most likely having a TAFE barista certificate the Barista is either told how to make it by the owner trying to maximise yeild/kg of beans or they still actually have no idea of how to make a good coffee in spite of the bit of paper.