Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What am I tasting in my espresso?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

    Is the taste sour like lemon or bitter like dark chocolate or cocoa? or something else?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

      OK, so I made some more coffees last the weekend, and one this morning.

      On the good side: the initial sharpness has gone. Im putting that down to the age "post roast" of the beans (10 days still there a bit, 15 days gone)

      On the bad side:
      The crema is still a bit thin
      Im also getting maybe 40 - 50mL in 25s rather than 60 so perhaps its a bit chocked.
      Theres still a slight sour aftertaste, which disappears with milk (mmmm, creamy!)

      Sorry havent got around to vids yet, another operation in the family (thats 3/4 of us in the last 3 months! Im knocking wood, burning incense, and sacrificing good coffee in the hope that I stay out of it! Not really, Im not superstitious, just a bad sense of humour!)

      Anyhoo, my next question is: What roaster and blend is your favourite for doppio espressos, maybe doppio ristrettos, with a good crema, and not too bad in milk either. Or is this what they all try to do? (they must be willing to post as well).

      thanks

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

        Originally posted by 777F77707A7C1E0 link=1321847865/16#16 date=1322703167
        Im also getting maybe 40 - 50mL in 25s rather than 60 so perhaps its a bit chocked.
        Glad the initial sharpness is going. Might just have been the beans settling.

        Originally posted by 777F77707A7C1E0 link=1321847865/16#16 date=1322703167
        The crema is still a bit thin
        Originally posted by 777F77707A7C1E0 link=1321847865/16#16 date=1322703167
        Theres still a slight sour aftertaste, which disappears with milk (mmmm, creamy!)
        This is quite the conundrum! If the pour is overly slow - the taste should get burnt/bitter - too fine a grind or too hard a tamp.
        But if the crema is thin and taste is sour - that often describes a pour that is too fast/too coarse a grind.

        Originally posted by 4E7F687170777C71671E0 link=1321847865/11#11 date=1322010756
        Sounds like channeling. So, yes work on your technique.
        Could this be part of the problem? If the PF is being overfilled (is it hard to get on?), then the puck can crack when you put the PF in and the water will follow the path of least resistance - through the cracks, and will miss extracting all the goodness, esp if the grind is too fine. That could also give that sour, under extracted flavour?

        In terms of bean variety - once you get this technique right to suit the new machine - it should all taste pretty reasonable! Try get the pour right, look at crema balance, correct volume etc etc - then you can make a accurate assessment on different tastes. But IMHO, for a really good general test batch - try some Brazils!

        This pic is kind of the norm for what most the pours for most beans give me for a doppio - this is an old pic - so I pull them a bit shorter/slower now now - put will give a ballpark. These cups are little 90ml units.

        Matt



        Comment


        • #19
          Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

          Originally posted by 24051309070E090E072219230F06060505600 link=1321847865/17#17 date=1322706811
          Could this be part of the problem? If the PF is being overfilled (is it hard to get on?)
          I know what you mean - I have overfilled it a couple of times but its very obvious when I do. I grind a pre-measured amount of beans, and I got that measure by overfilling it and then backing off until it didnt touch the screen anymore. Could it still be too much?

          Im not ruling out chanelling from my dose / tamp though. Short of a bottomless p/f Im not sure how to tell that. The puck comes out in one nice piece with no obvious cracks or holes.

          Originally posted by 24051309070E090E072219230F06060505600 link=1321847865/17#17 date=1322706811
          This pic is kind of the norm for what most the pours for most beans give me for a doppio
          hm, looks thicker than mine...

          Now, the K3T grinds look a bit "clumpy", but Ive tried WDT, the finger & thumb twist thingy, and nothing, and they dont seem to alter the results. I guess the clumps are just held by static and once you tamp it flattens them all out...

          thanks

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

            Originally posted by 7971797E7472100 link=1321847865/18#18 date=1322711129
            Short of a bottomless p/f Im not sure how to tell that.  The puck comes out in one nice piece with no obvious cracks or holes.
            Bad channeling youll sometimes see in the puck surface. A naked PF will show you a bit more - but youd really be splitting hairs at that point (ie hole 1056 is losing flow!")
            I havent got one yet, but would like to. Not so much for DDT info, but just to watch

            Originally posted by 7971797E7472100 link=1321847865/18#18 date=1322711129
            Now, the K3T grinds look a bit "clumpy", but Ive tried WDT, the finger & thumb twist thingy, and nothing, and they dont seem to alter the results.  I guess the clumps are just held by static and once you tamp it flattens them all out...
            I wouldnt worry too much about clumping etc - IMHO if the dose is about right (which you obviously recognise from experience), then the tamp generally levels things out pretty well. I personally use an ice cream lid wedge (which I also use to clear the grinder shute) just to sweep across the top in a few different directions to level, then tamp. Seems to work pretty well if the dose is right.

            Going to go out on a limb here - from my personal experiences with a similar setup to yours, Ive found that in my history thin/sour brews have often been fixed by a finer grind BUT Ive also had a to greatly reduce tamp pressure to suit. Even with a coarse grind you can choke a machine with a hard tamp - but will never get the best espresso out of it as the water cant get to the centre of each grain in that short extraction period.

            I remember various threads about 15kg of pressure for tamping - test on a bathroom scale type thing, which I tried initially. But these type of pressures can be really hard to control, esp in trying to get the tamp level - and with a sloping puck you are more likely to get channeling.

            But I have now adjusted my technique to cup the tamp handle in the palm, with all 5 fingers located around the circumference of the tamp base (skimming the PF basket during the tamping) to help me get everything level. Then I tamp quite lightly. Out of interest I checked this morning on some kitchen scales - and I only put about 3kg pressure on during the tamp (which is like the same pressure youd use with a couple of fingers to open a microwave door.)

            This really light tamp has allowed me to get a much finer grind, while maintaining a good flow rate - but as the grind has decreased in size, Ive found the flavour improving steadily until I go too far and it turns bitter.

            Thats my idea for the day - maybe measure your tamp pressure - I used to use a tamp that needed a full bicep curl ;D
            Try a super light tamp & finer grind - see what happens. I think it is a settings/technique thing. Now that Im into home roasting, Ive put all sorts of well & badly roasted beans through my setup. And flow rate & crema dont change a huge amount between batch/bean - but flavour does! So when you can get a consistent ball park pour - you can then assess flavours.

            But thin crema and sourness still sounds like too coarse a grind… so go finer - but adjust your tamp to suit…

            Good luck

            PS a pick of your actual pour/finished result could help?

            Matt

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

              Heres a comparison photo of my usual espresso shot. The photo was taken 2 minutes after the pour to allow for the crema to settle. Also beans are 3.5 weeks old, so not the freshest. The taste was slightly under extracted but definitely drinkable. Colour is typical out of the Giotto.





              Comment


              • #22
                Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                OK, tonights todo list: play with kids, feed kids, clean kids, tuckin kids, make espresso vid...

                Originally posted by 4F6E78626C6562656C497248646D6D6E6E0B0 link=1321847865/19#19 date=1322776657
                A naked PF will show you a bit more - but youd really be splitting hairs at that point (ie hole 1056 is losing flow!")
                I would hope to see uneven sided flow or multiple streams (or lack thereof...) with a naked pf, but that will have to wait until next year!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                  Originally posted by 3A323A3D3731530 link=1321847865/21#21 date=1322799573
                  OK, tonights todo list: play with kids, feed kids, clean kids, tuckin kids, make espresso vid..
                  Ahhhh youre in that stage! My kids are almost up to making me a brew - they certainly all help with the roasting already! ;D

                  Enjoy it while it lasts - its a really special time.

                  But they do require some work!!

                  Matt

                  Originally posted by 20323C2A36530 link=1321847865/20#20 date=1322792039
                  Heres a comparison photo of my usual espresso shot.
                  Hi Sayoe
                  Was that shot from a single basket? Or one of two from a double?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                    Originally posted by 1F3E28323C3532353C192218343D3D3E3E5B0 link=1321847865/22#22 date=1322801428
                    Hi Sayoe
                    Was that shot from a single basket? Or one of two from a double?

                    Single basket.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                      Nice one!
                      Never had much luck with singles - and the fun was over so quickly anyway!
                      Doppio it is then in the DBC breakfast routine ;D

                      Matt

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                        Im going for: too much coffee in the basket--causing either channelling or allowing a too coarse grind that is mashed against the screen to get the right timing.

                        The coffee, when tamped should be at least a mm or so below the screen. Try dropping a gram or so off your grind and see if that affects the timing. That much less coffee wont affect the timing by more than a couple of seconds unless the grinds are being heavily compressed against the screen.

                        Do a search here for the 5 cent test to get you in the right ballpark.

                        Greg

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                          Try cutting your pours shorter and aiming for a maximum of 40mls (and preferably 30mls) in total in 30 secs from the double basket - which may require fining your grind and increasing your tamp pressure - as this can potentially produce a much sweeter coffee without the harsh notes that youre describing

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                            Hee he he hee! ;D

                            Theres a wide range of conflicting advice - should keep you you experimenting for at least a fortnight! I suppose thats the reason technique is such an individual thing - listen to everyone, try everything, find out what works for you and ignore the rest!

                            Happy hunting!

                            Matt

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                              Iain,
                              Im no expert, but am a fellow reader of the finest newspaper known to man. I of course speak of the NT News.
                              Im about to order in some greens, and start learning how to roast again, but if you need a second opinion / different machine to try on, Id happily bring my machine / grinder along.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: What am I tasting in my espresso?

                                Originally posted by 262324242B2F244A0 link=1321847865/28#28 date=1322992948
                                finest newspaper known to man
                                ;D say no more!

                                Nice to meet a local snobber! Is that a manual lever and smart grinder you have there? Do you taste your shots "black"? How would you describe it? Id like to take you up on that - lets meet sometime. I may have some free time next weekend - 17th or so. Would this be the first ever NT meet n greet?!

                                Originally posted by 0E2F39232D2423242D083309252C2C2F2F4A0 link=1321847865/27#27 date=1322973021
                                should keep you you experimenting for at least a fortnight
                                yep, trying a few different things.

                                I took the suggestions of dosing - tried the 5c test. Possibly a touch too much grinds, so I used the larger VST basket and the same amount of beans to lower the top a bit. I ground a bit finer still and now the burrs are whispering when theres no beans so I dont want to go any finer. The puck is also a bit wet. Taste - a bit worse Still fine with milk though.

                                There may indeed be some channelling around the edges, but Im not sure why. I tried the 5c again on a wet puck to see how much it expanded, and theres no visible dent. There appears to be a smooth faint ring around the edge - a few mm in, and a few tiny holes on the top around the edge, so something weird is going on I think. The flow from the screen seems even.

                                Here is a shot of the shot after the adjustments. The condensation is probably because of the aircon, I dont think the temp is too hot - I do a cooling flush until it sounds non-bubbly. Ive made slightly better ones that this, but this is about average. The glass is 60mL to the rim.


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X