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Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

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  • Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    I have a Sunbeam 6910 espresso machine and almost all the posts on this forum say that the single filter is really bad, I must use the double. My question is, if I want a really good espresso, should I be aiming for 30ml or 60ml when using the double basket? If the answer is 30ml, then how long should it take to extract?

    Im finding that 30ml at 25secs (with the double basket) produces a bit of a burnt taste, and Im looking to improve

    Thanks for the advice in advance!

  • #2
    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    I too found myself asking much the same question.  Guess it comes from reading too many threads.

    Many posters talk about 30sec/30ml but very few mention number of doses/basket size. Discussion revolves around tamp, grind, grams per dose but make no mention of double/single.  Thats all perfectly acceptable but it leads to confusion amongst the half educated and we end up taking the wrong message.

    Its always 30sec and its  "30ml per dose" (normale).

    Aiming for 30/30 in a single cup with a double basket is somthing I mistakingly tried. Others will rightly wade in no doubt. Hopefuly they wont laugh too much.

    If you want 30ml with the double use two cups under the pf.

    Think of it as part of learning.
    dabbler

    BTW I use both baskets. Singles can work.
    [edit]And it dont know what 30/30 from double in single cup is called. Mini-ristretto ?[/edit]
    [edit]sorry ... mini- doppio ristretto[/edit]

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

      I tend to call that a "double ristretto" myself, I know its probably not exactly right but well, Its harder to pour into two cups when youve a Naked Portafilter, Ive found.

      I wonder if anyone else does it the same way as me?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

        Hmmm.
        just what is this way you speak of oh-naked one?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

          Originally posted by 575251515F5641330 link=1323844620/3#3 date=1323854490
          Hmmm.
          just what is this way you speak of oh-naked one?
          I really should explain my process somewhat to folks one of these days, I tend to go for 18 grams of coffee into the double sunbeam filter basket for a 30 second (or thereabouts, depends on what the beans are doing) 30 ml pour into a 175ml cup

          I was under the impression that a ristretto was a 15 ml pull for the single basket, or have I made that assumption wrong? :-/

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

            IMHO an espresso needs to be prepared from a single handle, in order for it to be classified as an espresso, or else youre producing a double ristretto - which is a different kind of beverage

            And Ive had excellent results producing 30ml in 30sec from both single and double baskets, from both domestic and commercial espresso machines

            But if I wanted to produce a double espresso (and for the record I would classify an espresso as a pour of between 20 and 30mls from a single basket) - I would use a double (or tripple) sized basket in a single handle, or else youre going to wind up with a different result

            Try this:

            Run a 30ml extraction from a single handle with a double basket

            And the run the same amount of coffee from a double handle also using a double basket

            Now do a side by side taste comparison - and what you are going to wind up with is two different products

            Why?

            Because the contents are under considerable pressure with a single handle - as there is only one possible exit point

            Whereas with the double handle there are two avenues for escape - so the puck will soak at a different rate, and, all things being equal, will run the shot faster - as there are more avenues for escape - thus producing a shot that is remarkably sweet, but not necessarily as full bodied, and (IMHO) without the same depth and complexity as an extraction run from a single handle

            Also, on the whole running 30ml from 30sec using a double handle saga - it ought to be eminently possible so long as you adjust your tamp and grind

            One of the less forgiving aspects of domestic machines is that theyre typically very sensitive to the above - so you will probably need to adjust your grind settings, especially if you are changing up from a single to a double handle n

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

              Therein lies the problems with shifting definitions.
              I dont think there is a fixed volume but maybe there once was an accepted amount akin to the accepted thirty ml for an espresso normale (sorry virtual keyboard once again plays up - cant get digits). Anyway I usually aim for around twenty ml for my ristretto and forty ml doppio.

              I think variations in volume have come about because of differences between the methods used to arrive at a ristretto. Add that to the trends that allow a shift away from things like third/third/third for a cappucino and I think you are allowed to called yours "ristretto" in your household even though its not the same as my ristretto in my house. A rose by any other name?

              If we didnt have the net wed be none the wiser and wed all be happy in our ignorance of others.


              However, right now Id choke on my pours at fifteen ml !
              dabbler

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              • #8
                Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                Im confused by "handle" in this context. Do you mean number of spouts?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                  Originally posted by 35313331223D3D580 link=1323844620/0#0 date=1323844620
                  I have a Sunbeam 6910 espresso machine and almost all the posts on this forum say that the single filter is really bad, I must use the double. My question is, if I want a really good espresso, should I be aiming for 30ml or 60ml when using the double basket? If the answer is 30ml, then how long should it take to extract?

                  Im finding that 30ml at 25secs (with the double basket) produces a bit of a burnt taste, and Im looking to improve

                  Thanks for the advice in advance!
                  Funny you write about this now...I had exactly the same issue/question/concern with my Silvia/Rocky setup recently. There is loads of practical advice in my thread on how to adjust the volume...but the core question of what is normal and right was not really addressed the way it has been here.

                  So it seems consensus is that from a double basket you should be aiming for about 60mls in 30 seconds to make two espressos. And a single basket should pull 30mls in 30 seconds for a single espresso.

                  To start with I was getting about 30mls in 30 seconds from my oversized double (not really a triple but bigger than the Rancilio double). I was stopping the extraction because I didnt want the pour to blond too much (resulting in bitter aftertaste). Ive since been watching many videos and it seems I might have been stopping the pour too early by most peoples technique. But the taste is all that matters in the end.

                  I have been playing around with grind and tamp settings and have it out to about 45-50mls in 30s from the double basket, with good taste and good crema. A work in progress but heading in the right direction.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                    Originally posted by 687A627D616C6A666F6F6C6C6E7C70090 link=1323844620/5#5 date=1323859341
                    Try this:

                    Run a 30ml extraction from a single handle with a double basket

                    And the run the same amount of coffee from a double handle also using a double basket

                    Now do a side by side taste comparison - and what you are going to wind up with is two different products

                    Why?

                    Because the contents are under considerable pressure with a single handle - as there is only one possible exit point

                    Whereas with the double handle there are two avenues for escape - so the puck will soak at a different rate, and, all things being equal, will run the shot faster - as there are more avenues for escape - thus producing a shot that is remarkably sweet, but not necessarily as full bodied, and (IMHO) without the same depth and complexity as an extraction run from a single handle

                    I think you may be confused; the spouts do not offer a relief of pressure nor does restrict the pour in any way. The double group handle with the two spouts does not offer another "avenue of escape".
                    The differing flow rates with single and double baskets are caused by different designs.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                      Wow, thanks for the responses! Very good reading material for me in this thread.

                      Ive had a sneaking suspicion Ive bee doing it wrong every time I use my machine. Now I know thats true  doh!!!!

                      So to summarise, I should be outputting 60ml in 30 secs with a double basket. This is going to completely change my methodology when I make my coffee this morning... cant wait to try and see the result!

                      Thanks again

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                        Originally posted by 212527253629294C0 link=1323844620/10#10 date=1323896898
                        So to summarise, I should be outputting 60ml in 30 secs with a double basket. This is going to completely change my methodology when I make my coffee this morning... cant wait to try and see the result!
                        Heres an idea, if you only want to drink one espresso in the morning - run your double basket pour into 2 espresso cups. Drink one, then tip the other into an ice cube tray. Summer is coming, and it makes great iced coffees! I used up about 300g of coffee I had ground for camping once like this - much better than throwing it out or letting it go stale.
                        Or start drinking doppios

                        Matt

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                          Originally posted by 78594F555B5255525B7E457F535A5A59593C0 link=1323844620/11#11 date=1323899806
                          Originally posted by 212527253629294C0 link=1323844620/10#10 date=1323896898
                          So to summarise, I should be outputting 60ml in 30 secs with a double basket. This is going to completely change my methodology when I make my coffee this morning... cant wait to try and see the result!
                          Heres an idea, if you only want to drink one espresso in the morning - run your double basket pour into 2 espresso cups. Drink one, then tip the other into an ice cube tray. Summer is coming, and it makes great iced coffees! I used up about 300g of coffee I had ground for camping once like this - much better than throwing it out or letting it go stale.
                          Or start drinking doppios   

                          Matt 
                          Well I had a doppio this morning, before I saw this message - but thats a great idea! I love iced coffees and frappe style drinks too, its great for summer. Although.. Im in Sydney and the weather has been feeling more like winter lately! :-/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                            Originally posted by 5E5A585A495656330 link=1323844620/12#12 date=1323900397
                            Although.. Im in Sydney and the weather has been feeling more like winter lately!
                            We come from the other side of the mountains and get snow - so that sounds like great Christmas weather to us! None of this 40 degree carry-on
                            But doppios are the go - a straight espresso is over too quick for me!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                              Originally posted by 5D4F574854595F535A5A59595B49453C0 link=1323844620/5#5 date=1323859341
                              Because the contents are under considerable pressure with a single handle - as there is only one possible exit point

                              Whereas with the double handle there are two avenues for escape
                              I have never seen a handle with two avenues for escape, they have all had a single hole in the bottom regardless of the number of spouts attached.
                              I thought the pressure was determined by the coffee puck and basket design rather than the handle

                              Comment

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