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Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

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  • #16
    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Originally posted by 2721363D2720383A530 link=1323844620/14#14 date=1323917922
    I have never seen a handle with two avenues for escape, they have all had a single hole in the bottom regardless of the number of spouts attached.
    Too true. In an E61 arrangement there is the basket itself which creates the back pressure, then all the coffee flows out into the same collection point to exit the handle, then can either flow down a single spout or divide into a double. So it is the basket that creates the pressure - not the spouts.

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    • #17
      Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

      Originally posted by 484C4E4C5F4040250 link=1323844620/0#0 date=1323844620
      I have a Sunbeam 6910 espresso machine and almost all the posts on this forum say that the single filter is really bad, I must use the double. My question is, if I want a really good espresso, should I be aiming for 30ml or 60ml when using the double basket? If the answer is 30ml, then how long should it take to extract?

      Im finding that 30ml at 25secs (with the double basket) produces a bit of a burnt taste, and Im looking to improve

      Thanks for the advice in advance!
      Title of the Topic:
      "Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?"

      Answer:
      Yes, and it is simply a double strength espresso because you used a double portion of grinds to pour the one volume shot 

      For normal single skin filters (ie no "funny business" with double skins or other devices in the group handles etc):
      If the single filter is half a double, there is no problem with that, wont require grinder re-adjustments, and will flow out same as a double. This is easily exemplified if you look at the standard filter supplied with the Silvia. It is half of the double.

      If on the other hand your single filter is similar to the deep commercial single filter found on most commercial and semi commercial machines in this market, it is NOT half of the corresponding double but 2/3 of the double. This does require a re adjustment of the grinder to get a similar flow rate to the double and of course, the resulting strength of the espresso is not the same as that made from a double.

      Your question about "if you want something really good"......only you can answer that. If you like a standard espresso, run with that. If you like a double strength, then run with that. Its up to you, even if it is my personal opinion you should try and get the very best coffee you can in the standard way before you go experimenting.

      It doesnt matter which configuration of filters you run with,  but to answer your question, it doesnt matter whether it is a single or a double, the "standard" pour time remains the same at somewhere between say, 20 to 30 seconds.  So you either produce a single espresso with a single filter in 20-30 secs, or you produce 2 espressos using a double filter in 20-30 secs.

      If you get a "burnt taste", it could be that your grind is too fine, or that your coffee blend doesnt like being turned into a double strength espresso, or that your taste buds dont dont like double strength espresso made using your modus operandi with your beans and your equipment set up. This is an individual thing, and you could try coarsening the grind a tad to see how that changes the result.

      By the way I think you will find that for any particular coffee, it is the grind setting / dose / and tamping pressure that ultimately creates the backpressure that governs the extraction and flow rate. This is also why two different baristas may extract a different brew using the same beans and equipment...its their technique that differs.

      FYI there have been enough machines built using unrestricted groups that made great coffee. How did they achieve the standard flow rate from the unrestricted groups......? Grind / dose  / tamp.

      In addition, all of the above demonstrates why it can be invaluable to take a lesson, where all these variables can be explained and demonstrated into tangible examples in front of you! Our clients always leave a coffee class with a smile on their face 

      Hope that helps,
      Attilio
      very first CS site sponsor.

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      • #18
        Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

        Attilio

        Very helpful response, thank you I guess it is a subjective question, and to be honest I was starting to enjoy the "double strength" espresso I was making haha. But I just wanted to get a solid foundation of understanding first ie. the "right" way to do it, even if that isnt my preferred taste.. the general consensus cant be too wrong  ;D Thanks for the help

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        • #19
          Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

          As you are starting to see there isnt any *RIGHT WAY*!

          As long as you use italian measures and times as a basis, then you should use a stale-ish, dark roast with a fair proportion of robusta, and run your machine hot.

          Otherwise just experiment until you get the result you want, and stick to it.

          Greg

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          • #20
            Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

            Originally posted by 44716664546C716E626F67030 link=1323844620/18#18 date=1324037409
            Otherwise just experiment until you get the result you want, and stick to it
            Thats right to a point, but if you stop when you get to "something you like", you might never get to "something you love" 8-)

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            • #21
              Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

              Why are you calling to the portafilter, "handle"?

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              • #22
                Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                Ciao Oton.

                In inglese, il portafiltro se chiama il "group handle". La manopola del gruppo!

                Gli americani hanno americanizato il termine portafiltro, mettendo in inglese lultima parola che diventa "filter"......porta - filter.......

                Ma e la stessa cosa:
                Porta Filtro = Group Handle = Porta-Filter

                Il perche......? Chi lo sa?

                Hope that helps,
                Attilio

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                • #23
                  Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                  Originally posted by 756E75741A0 link=1323844620/20#20 date=1324170157
                  Why are you calling to the portafilter, "handle"?
                  Because it is a "Group Handle".

                  The filter basket goes into the group handle that locks into the group head.

                  Some of the planet use portafilter, most use group handle unless they are writting documentation for the US.
                  :

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                  • #24
                    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                    (I need to type faster)... yeah, what he said 2 posts up!
                    ;D

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                    • #25
                      Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                      True espresso is neither timed nor measured by volume....... one must look past the constricting parameters of time and volume to create the essence of espresso....

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                      • #26
                        Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                        Yes, and exponents of espresso especially newcomers, need to start somewhere so they know if theyre in the ballpark or not. The constraint of time as found in the various definitions of espresso, is merely a guide.

                        There is no dispute on volume however. A 30 ml is a standard espresso. You can make it smaller or larger, but they are not a standard measure.

                        If a barista is consistent, all is good. If he is not, then I am afraid all is no good.

                        The total character in the brew needs to be well balanced and representative of what anyone may think an espresso should be.

                        This is recognized in the current WBC rules, and I hope you will allow me to make the point that, the more we write about this, the more exceptions ("to the rule") respondents will wanna make, so I am going to stop there.

                        Hope that helps.

                        A.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                          The Zen art of espresso states that espresso can not be standardised....... :-?

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                          • #28
                            Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                            Since its seems no one has actually answered the question directly (unless I missed it  ). Here goes:

                            The traditional Italian espresso is 30mls extracted from 7 grams of coffee.  Or the equivalent 60mls from 14 grams.
                            Extracting less volume from the same amount coffee heads you in the ristretto direction, and extracting move volume heads you in the lungo direction.
                            So in theory if youre extracting 60mls from you double basket that is filled with 18 grams of coffee then youre actually producing something in the middle of an espresso and a ristretto. But most here would just call it an espresso.  Or an interpretation of the espresso.... or the Modern espresso... or the Aussie espresso... or the New Millennium espresso...

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                            • #29
                              Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                              Originally posted by 544C5E454443414C59444B2D0 link=1323844620/27#27 date=1324526994
                              Or an interpretation of the espresso.... or the Modern espresso... or the Aussie espresso... or the New Millennium espresso...
                              Very well put! I agree!!

                              The "Traditional Italian" method is but one method of espresso production, and in my opinion, outdated and not fully supportive of best results. Hense the reasons for my extremely ambigious answers. In my opinion, great espresso is only truely achieved by the understanding of the coffee and how to get the best from its constant changes. There is only one wrong way to extract coffee........and thats if the result in the cup tastes unpleasant.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                                My understanding (and Im by no means an expert) is largely as stated above, but in summary:

                                An espresso shot includes a fair amount of liquid post-blonding and is ~30mL (presumably from however much coffee allows you to get that in about 30 seconds). Consider that a double basket for some (like me on the breville) is probably less coffee than a single commercial size basket.

                                A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water. This is going to be smaller volume than the ~30mL, but probably depends a lot on the coffee, grind, machine, tamp.

                                So, if you use a double basket and the shot stops prior to blonding, I would consider it a ristretto (or maybe double ristretto), not an espresso. The increase in coffee oil and backpressure from increasing the dose will mean that blonding will occur later (or, more correctly, after a greater volume) so you might be able to pull a 30mL ristretto.

                                So long as it tastes good, does it really matter what you call it?

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