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Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

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  • #31
    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Originally posted by 1F2018333139520 link=1323844620/29#29 date=1324532890
    A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water
    Nice one. Going by the blonding point does make more sense. 30mls from 7 grams is far too simplistic (especially for a Coffeesnob!).

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    • #32
      Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

      Originally posted by 322D2A2920362D2A3124292A3320450 link=1323844620/28#28 date=1324530038
      The "Traditional Italian" method is but one method of espresso production, and in my opinion, outdated and not fully supportive of best results
      Well said! Times have changed, the coffee we have access to now is of a far better quality and consistency of decades ago and over the past few years the trend has been leaning towards lighter roasting. From as far as I can tell the new wave of specialty coffee cafes/roasters are recommending to start at 20g in the basket, for 30g of espresso in 25-30 seconds and then adjust to taste from there.

      So in short, yes 30ml from a double basket is an espresso.

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      • #33
        Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

        Originally posted by 4C474B4355404A434B4F4841260 link=1323844620/31#31 date=1325069656
        So in short, yes 30ml from a double basket is an espresso.

        So what is a ristretto? :-?

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        • #34
          Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

          Originally posted by 4F44484056434940484C4B42250 link=1323844620/31#31 date=1325069656
          Well said! Times have changed, the coffee we have access to now is of a far better quality and consistency of decades ago and over the past few years the trend has been leaning towards lighter roasting. From as far as I can tell the new wave of specialty coffee cafes/roasters are recommending to start at 20g in the basket, for 30g of espresso in 25-30 seconds and then adjust to taste from there.
          I would argue though that whatever new wave cafes are making its not espresso. Like it or not the Italian Standard is the only formal standard we have for coffee and whether we like what that tastes like or not doesnt detract from the fact, as Yash eloquently posted above.

          I do think that its more useful to express the results in weights rather than volumes, as this at least ensures that extraction rations are similar and deals with the issue of varying crema.

          The espresso I make on my Lever is about 14.5g of coffee extracted to about 30g of coffee in the cup for a 50% extraction ratio. That usually means about 50ml of coffee and crema in the cup but obviously varies with the bean type and age. For those interested in a more esoteric and technical debate on this issue there are a number of threads on the Home Barista site that deal with it at length.

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          • #35
            Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

            Originally posted by 7076616A70776F6D040 link=1323844620/32#32 date=1325081483
            So what is a ristretto?
            The Italian Standard for an espresso would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee .

            So basically to make a ristretto instead of an espresso, grind finer so that you extract less the same amount of coffee during the standard 25-30 sec brew time.

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            • #36
              Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

              Originally posted by 7A62706B6A6D6F62776A65030 link=1323844620/34#34 date=1325129054
              The Italian Standard for an espresso would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee .

              You are directly contradicting the post I quoted which stated that 30mls from a double basket was an espresso, you are saying half that volume from a single basket is a ristretto ;D

              And you yourself stated further up the page
              Originally posted by 7A62706B6A6D6F62776A65030 link=1323844620/27#27 date=1324526994
              The traditional Italian espresso is 30mls extracted from 7 grams of coffee
              Just what "Italian Standard" are you all quoting? and why is it different everytime someone refers to it?

              Originally posted by 4E7149626068030 link=1323844620/29#29 date=1324532890
              A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water. This is going to be smaller volume than the ~30mL
              Well I can get 60 mls from a double basket before it blonds, are you saying that should be a Ristretto rather than a double?

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              • #37
                Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                While some of you blokes discuss the academics of Zen and the Art of Espresso Production from the sidelines , my own experience would tell me that more than 90% of eateries with espresso machines (you can call them cafes if you wish) have a less than satisfactory standard level of education of coffee production in their coffee machine operating staff (you can call them "baristas" if you wish). Many of them ruin the coffee no matter whose brand or blend it is, or how old it is, or if its a blend or an SO, or whether it had a roasted date on the back of the pack.

                Enter the good things for coffeesnobs and they are:
                a) coffee & coffee machine education abnd
                b) god forbid.....a standard to educate them to.

                Most cafes in our market are a concrete example of why a standard (any standard but a standard nevertheless) is required, atleast as a starting point, before anyone can digress.

                Oddly, it reminds me of a saying that I havent heard for a long time but is no less relevant now and it refers to passing your driving test. You have to know the rules before you can break em! meaning, learn the rules (the standard), or you wont pass the test, and only after that can go and do whatever you like.....!

                I would hazard one last probably unprovable private thought. I doubt the "espresso standard" as we know it was written by an Italian. As an ethnic group, I dont think they think like that as in to quantify something that is simply just part of their life. It was probably written by a "third party". The Italian themselves break their own rules, and if you read "the standard" it doesnt necessarily reflect what they do themselves in Italy.....the easiest thing to pick is the volume of the standard espresso. If you ask for an espresso or a coffee in Italy, you invariably get a ristretto.  So perhaps everyone here basically is in agreement, except for my part I will reiterate, you have to know the rules before you can break em. Most Ausie "cafes are a prime example of that, and its a worry...a real big worry....when you supply them with the coffee that they destroy nd in so doing, destroy your name in conjunction with theirs.

                And WRT the Italian standard. Their home market uses the small commercial filters...8 gram and 16 grams actual dose. And with that they make.....ristretto coffee.  Outside Italy most use the larger "export" filters. Depending on whether you updaose or not and the type of group on the machine, they can hold from 18 to 20 grams. This is because countries outside italy use a bucket full of milk in larger that std capp cups. They also dont use the Italian standard cappuccino rule which is 1/3 coffee 1/3 milk 1/3 froth. Here we virtually fill the cup with milk especially if its a lartey..... you have to use the larger filters / portions of grinds to get a similar character in the larger milk coffees, unless you want to accept paying for a milk coffee that only has 2/3 volume in it. In this market, I think not.

                So I think you will find, that "Italan std" and ausie std "espressos" turn out a similar character in the cup (disregarding use of different beans / blends) from using different quantities of grinds, owing to the different cup volumes required.

                Conversely, some new wave cafes that put out that they are trooly serious about coffee think its trendy to serve 10 ml portions when asked for an espresso. It renders the coffee unable to be judged on the full gammit of characters that really could have been found in the coffee, because it has been poured so short.

                Bring on education, and a standard.

                WRT blonding.....nothing to do with anything other than the available oils have petered out for that coffee, using those beans, that grind and that machine, now. Get someone esle to make the next coffee using all the same gear and beans, and it may well blond at a different point, and it is well enough known that you can run into a blond a little way and still make a good coffee...especially when it is used in milk coffee which is what most people drink here. Most people couldnt tell the difference if a blind test was run.


                Rgdz,
                Attilio
                very first CS site sponsor.   

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                • #38
                  Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                  For most cafes that serve espresso-based beverages, the standards that need to be enforced are the very basics. We could start with how long the ground coffee can sit in the doser. Creating a proper dose, distribution technique, and adjusting grind would be a HUGE first step in many (if not most) establishments.

                  But many of the managers/owners/chefs have not bothered to get the same education in terms of coffee and espresso that they have for baking and grilling. Some of you may remember the furor I created on Daniel Rogovs site concerning an article he posted on coffee which was a good 50 years out of date and contained so many falsehoods concerning coffee it was laughable. I asked one shop owner/operator before I became educated in the world of espresso why he was using a thermometer in the milk when he was steaming it. He replied that it was to make sure that the milk was hot enough to kill the bacteria.

                  An acquaintance was a commercial roaster for a good 50 years. He wanted to institute a training program and certification for the baristas in the shops he supplied with little lapel pins (badges) for those who completed the course. I told him that most customers dont know the difference because the VAST majority of them order a hot milkshake so loaded with fat and sugar that they could be using automatic transmission fluid instead of espresso and they could hardly tell the difference.

                  For most shop (nearly all shops) there is little motivation to spend the time (and $$) to train and educate a staff which is working for minimum wage, and the retraining of new employees with the rapid turnover in staff that most shops when they are already experiencing a rush at the usual times and are selling the coffee about as fast as they can make it. In other words, if the customers dont seem to care, why should the shops?

                  My suggestion to him was to get the shops interested in customer appreciation nights. Bring in some live music, and between tunes, hand out free drinks, explain the origins, and let them sample quality beverages. Sure, that means training before hand, but the motivation (an interested customer base) to do so would be there.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                    Yes the thing that causes the most trouble for coffee suppliers, from their eatery clients IS the inability to understand the relationship between the beans, the grinder, and the machine. Yes it is "adjusting grind" as you put it in a nutshell....and yes, that usually makes for a HUGE first step and advance in cup quality.

                    The rest, out in the real marketplace where the dollars count, is as you say. Thankyou for the interesting & insightful post.

                    A.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                      Originally posted by 212A262E382D272E2622252C4B0 link=1323844620/31#31 date=1325069656
                      So in short, yes 30ml from a double basket is an espresso.
                      It should be clarified that you are referring to a double sunbeam basket with 18g in it (which is closer to a single basket in a commercial machine).

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                      • #41
                        Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                        Not sure what to make of that. 

                        A standard commercial double filter in Australia (ie not the smaller italian market double filter), holds between around 18 to 20 grams depending on whether the operator updoses it or not, and also depending on the type of group on the brand of machine (ie ultimate position of shower wrt height of grinds in the filter).

                        The corresponding oz market commercial single filter holds around 12 grams of actual grinds...updosing much more than that will stop it engaging into the group.

                        Hope that helps.

                        A.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                          Really? I thought commercial double filters were closer to 28g?

                          My mistake.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                            Nah, nothing bigger than the filters Ive referred to will fit in regular commercial group handles. You cant go bigger diameter, so the only way to go is deeper, but deeper filters hit bottom.

                            Which is where if you have a group handle that has had the bottom cut out of it a-la "bottomless" or "naked" group handles, then you can fit in the normally unusable so called "triple" filters which will fit in a little more grinds than the others. They may look similar to a regular double filter however are not regular use or even a "double" filter in reality.

                            You can also get other double filters with a profile that results in them sitting much closer to the sides of the group handle inner body and nudging the bottom,  but in many cases they dont work very well because they are still too big for standard group handles supplied with the equipment and dont sit well with resulting effects.

                            Hope that helps,
                            A

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                            • #44
                              Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                              The Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano defines the brewing conditions for an espresso as:

                              • Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g ± 0,5
                              • Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C
                              • Temperature of the drink in the cup 67°C ± 3°C
                              • Entry water pressure 9 bar ± 1
                              • Percolation time 25 seconds ± 2,5 seconds
                              • Millilitres in the cup (including foam) 25 ml ± 2,5


                              Java "Yes there really is an Italian Standard" phile
                              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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                              • #45
                                Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                                • Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C
                                Really?
                                Thats 186.8 - 194.0 F. I have shown that 1 F. degree can make the difference in the cup between delicious and over-extracted rudeness on the palate. 90 +/-2 C. seems more reasonable. An 8 F. range in my experience seems ridiculous. It seems to me that they are quantifying a range that works with the coffees and machines with which they want it to work. Beyond that, seems to me that these temperatures are quite low.

                                From those figures, I see them as a political organization creating a set of standards that best serves the needs of their country and the organizations that subscribe (as in join $$) .

                                They state, "On July 6, 1998 the Italian Espresso National Institute (Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano) was founded, with the specific goal of safeguarding and promoting the original Espresso." The original Italian Espresso was cheap Brazil and Robusta. If that needs safeguarding, then they can keep their standards.

                                It is the vast majority of experienced home baristas who will state that a superauto machine is a compromise on the best of days, and the fact that the Institute certifies a number of super-autos as meeting their standards shows that they have priorities other than creating the very best espresso possible.

                                Just one guys ranted opinion... :

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