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Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

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  • #46
    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

    Art or Science?

    I reckon, make it so you like it, and alls well.

    Espresso: A coffee that takes 10 minutes to prepare, 3 seconds to drink, and 2 hours to enjoy (after which you will have to have another one!).

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    • #47
      Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

      Originally posted by 1C231B30323A510 link=1323844620/29#29 date=1324532890
      A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water.
      Originally posted by 28302239383F3D30253837510 link=1323844620/34#34 date=1325129054
      So basically to make a ristretto instead of an espresso,  grind finer so that you extract less the same amount of coffee during the standard 25-30 sec brew time.

      Two different ways to achieve ristretto? I assume with different results in the cup?

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      • #48
        Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

        Originally posted by 362E3C272621232E3B26294F0 link=1323844620/34#34 date=1325129054
        trentski wrote on Dec 29th, 2011 at 1:11am:
        So what is a ristretto?

        The Italian Standard for an espresso would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee .
        Hi, that was a typo I meant:
        "The Italian Standard for a RISTRETTO would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee" 

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        • #49
          Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

          Originally posted by 465E4C575651535E4B56593F0 link=1323844620/47#47 date=1325260897
          Hi, that was a typo I meant:
          "The Italian Standard for a RISTRETTO would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee"
          The Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano Standard doesnt talk about other drinks like ristretto, only Espresso. So I dont believe there is actually a standard for it.

          Traditionally the term was used in Italy to describe an espresso that was pulled early from a Lever machine, so I am not sure that there is any way of truly replicating the drink on modern automatic, pump driven espresso machines.

          Its probably developed into a trendy marketing term in pretentious cafes in Australia more than anything else, and for the coffee snob, we are probably better served by discussing the result expressed as brew ratios to allow meaningful comparison.


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          • #50
            Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

            Very interesting reading here!

            The coffee brewing ratios, above, make the most sense to me but do they contradict the opinions above?

            If we stick to the case of espresso and double espresso, dont those ratios above imply the following?

            Espresso: 7 grams of coffee, 14 grams (the same in mL) of espresso
            Double Espresso: 14 grams of coffee, 28 grams (mL) of espresso.

            If thats the case, where does this 30, 60 business come from?

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            • #51
              Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

              Ok, here we go...



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              • #52
                Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                I believe the Italian word restretto means restricted, that is, you exclude the first and the last part of the shot, leaving only the middle part of the flow to go into the cup, mid-stream so to speak.

                To answer the original question, according to Italcaffes Barista Manual,

                The International Standard for espresso extraction is:[list bull-redball][*]7 grams of ground coffee into the correct handle[*]Tapmed[*]Brewed: using water at 90 degrees C (194 degrees F)[*]Under pressure of 9 BAR[*]With extraction time of 20 - 25 seconds[*]Producing 28 ml of espresso[*](Brew the espresso into a demi tasse [French meaning half cup])[/list]
                So producing 30ml from double basket, we assuming that you have used 2x7g=14g of coffee, you are not getting a standard cup of espresso.

                As coffee snobs we are, we ought to know how to do it properly.

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                • #53
                  Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                  Yes but...... (however....).....(and.....)......we also need to be able to interpret the information to reflect the reality .

                  The salient point there is the "7 grams into the correct handle"

                  All coffee filters that I know of, as supplied by Italian manufacturers themselves into export markets where people have been used to and continue to demand to drink "giant" coffees, hold more than 7 grams and those filters (or "handles" if you like) must be filled to their correct holding capacity or the espresso principle of extraction does not work.

                  The 7 gram thing is for the Italian home market and those markets that drink small coffees, ie where they generally do serve a ristretto size coffee and can get away with the small filter, especially as the blends they use in their market most often have a very high proportion of robusta making their resulting coffees much much stronger in character overall, than our coffees made using mostly high grown arabicas.

                  Simply put, in this market you need the extra grinds because of the coffees we use, the size of wet coffees demanded, and that governs the size of filters supplied with the equipment.

                  There is more to this than an apparently outdated Italian written (?) "international" standard, that in addition to the mechanics of the spec doesnt take into consideration the types of coffees used for the resulting character in the cup, and therefore for the sake of all of us pedants out there reading this, I too am going to go back to the question and answer it (again) with:

                  Yes, you have simply made a double strength (or simply a double" if you wish) espresso, according to the relevant way of producing espresso in this market.

                  As always, there is more to it than meets the eye at first.

                  In addition, a man that says he can stop the pour at an exact 28ml is either superman or he is lying, and even the multitude of espresso measuring glasses differ from eachother as to where the white marker line is baked on. I use two "identical" type measuring glasses at my cupping station and the white line is not in the same place on each.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                    I dunno, I thought the temperature you suggested (90 C) was a little on the cold side...

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                    • #55
                      Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?

                      Ive been under the assumption it was closer to the 92, 94 celsius mark. Could certainly be wrong but Id love to find out.
                      This has been a really interesting thread.

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