Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Ive been under the assumption it was closer to the 92, 94 celsius mark. Could certainly be wrong but Id love to find out.
This has been a really interesting thread.
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Collapse
X
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
I dunno, I thought the temperature you suggested (90 C) was a little on the cold side...
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Yes but...... (however....).....(and.....)......we also need to be able to interpret the information to reflect the reality
.
The salient point there is the "7 grams into the correct handle"
All coffee filters that I know of, as supplied by Italian manufacturers themselves into export markets where people have been used to and continue to demand to drink "giant" coffees, hold more than 7 grams and those filters (or "handles" if you like) must be filled to their correct holding capacity or the espresso principle of extraction does not work.
The 7 gram thing is for the Italian home market and those markets that drink small coffees, ie where they generally do serve a ristretto size coffee and can get away with the small filter, especially as the blends they use in their market most often have a very high proportion of robusta making their resulting coffees much much stronger in character overall, than our coffees made using mostly high grown arabicas.
Simply put, in this market you need the extra grinds because of the coffees we use, the size of wet coffees demanded, and that governs the size of filters supplied with the equipment.
There is more to this than an apparently outdated Italian written (?) "international" standard, that in addition to the mechanics of the spec doesnt take into consideration the types of coffees used for the resulting character in the cup, and therefore for the sake of all of us pedants out there reading this, I too am going to go back to the question and answer it (again) with:
Yes, you have simply made a double strength (or simply a double" if you wish) espresso, according to the relevant way of producing espresso in this market.
As always, there is more to it than meets the eye at first.
In addition, a man that says he can stop the pour at an exact 28ml is either superman or he is lying, and even the multitude of espresso measuring glasses differ from eachother as to where the white marker line is baked on. I use two "identical" type measuring glasses at my cupping station and the white line is not in the same place on each.
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
I believe the Italian word restretto means restricted, that is, you exclude the first and the last part of the shot, leaving only the middle part of the flow to go into the cup, mid-stream so to speak.
To answer the original question, according to Italcaffes Barista Manual,
The International Standard for espresso extraction is:[list bull-redball][*]7 grams of ground coffee into the correct handle[*]Tapmed[*]Brewed: using water at 90 degrees C (194 degrees F)[*]Under pressure of 9 BAR[*]With extraction time of 20 - 25 seconds[*]Producing 28 ml of espresso[*](Brew the espresso into a demi tasse [French meaning half cup])[/list]
So producing 30ml from double basket, we assuming that you have used 2x7g=14g of coffee, you are not getting a standard cup of espresso.
As coffee snobs we are, we ought to know how to do it properly.
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Ok, here we go...

- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Very interesting reading here!
The coffee brewing ratios, above, make the most sense to me but do they contradict the opinions above?
If we stick to the case of espresso and double espresso, dont those ratios above imply the following?
Espresso: 7 grams of coffee, 14 grams (the same in mL) of espresso
Double Espresso: 14 grams of coffee, 28 grams (mL) of espresso.
If thats the case, where does this 30, 60 business come from?
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
The Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano Standard doesnt talk about other drinks like ristretto, only Espresso. So I dont believe there is actually a standard for it.Originally posted by 465E4C575651535E4B56593F0 link=1323844620/47#47 date=1325260897Hi, that was a typo I meant:
"The Italian Standard for a RISTRETTO would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee"
Traditionally the term was used in Italy to describe an espresso that was pulled early from a Lever machine, so I am not sure that there is any way of truly replicating the drink on modern automatic, pump driven espresso machines.
Its probably developed into a trendy marketing term in pretentious cafes in Australia more than anything else, and for the coffee snob, we are probably better served by discussing the result expressed as brew ratios to allow meaningful comparison.
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Hi, that was a typo I meant:Originally posted by 362E3C272621232E3B26294F0 link=1323844620/34#34 date=1325129054trentski wrote on Dec 29th, 2011 at 1:11am:
So what is a ristretto?
The Italian Standard for an espresso would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee .
"The Italian Standard for a RISTRETTO would be 15mls of extraction from 7 grams of coffee"

- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Originally posted by 1C231B30323A510 link=1323844620/29#29 date=1324532890A ristretto is achieved by stopping the shot early, prior to (or just as) blonding, so that you collect most of the coffee oil, but with a minimum of water.Originally posted by 28302239383F3D30253837510 link=1323844620/34#34 date=1325129054So basically to make a ristretto instead of an espresso, grind finer so that you extract less the same amount of coffee during the standard 25-30 sec brew time.
Two different ways to achieve ristretto? I assume with different results in the cup?
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Art or Science?
I reckon, make it so you like it, and alls well.
Espresso: A coffee that takes 10 minutes to prepare, 3 seconds to drink, and 2 hours to enjoy (after which you will have to have another one!).
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Really?• Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C
Thats 186.8 - 194.0 F. I have shown that 1 F. degree can make the difference in the cup between delicious and over-extracted rudeness on the palate. 90 +/-2 C. seems more reasonable. An 8 F. range in my experience seems ridiculous. It seems to me that they are quantifying a range that works with the coffees and machines with which they want it to work. Beyond that, seems to me that these temperatures are quite low.
From those figures, I see them as a political organization creating a set of standards that best serves the needs of their country and the organizations that subscribe (as in join $$) .
They state, "On July 6, 1998 the Italian Espresso National Institute (Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano) was founded, with the specific goal of safeguarding and promoting the original Espresso." The original Italian Espresso was cheap Brazil and Robusta. If that needs safeguarding, then they can keep their standards.
It is the vast majority of experienced home baristas who will state that a superauto machine is a compromise on the best of days, and the fact that the Institute certifies a number of super-autos as meeting their standards shows that they have priorities other than creating the very best espresso possible.
Just one guys ranted opinion... :
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
The Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano defines the brewing conditions for an espresso as:
• Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g ± 0,5
• Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C
• Temperature of the drink in the cup 67°C ± 3°C
• Entry water pressure 9 bar ± 1
• Percolation time 25 seconds ± 2,5 seconds
• Millilitres in the cup (including foam) 25 ml ± 2,5
Java "Yes there really is an Italian Standard" phile
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Nah, nothing bigger than the filters Ive referred to will fit in regular commercial group handles. You cant go bigger diameter, so the only way to go is deeper, but deeper filters hit bottom.
Which is where if you have a group handle that has had the bottom cut out of it a-la "bottomless" or "naked" group handles, then you can fit in the normally unusable so called "triple" filters which will fit in a little more grinds than the others. They may look similar to a regular double filter however are not regular use or even a "double" filter in reality.
You can also get other double filters with a profile that results in them sitting much closer to the sides of the group handle inner body and nudging the bottom, but in many cases they dont work very well because they are still too big for standard group handles supplied with the equipment and dont sit well with resulting effects.
Hope that helps,
A
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Really? I thought commercial double filters were closer to 28g?
My mistake.
- Flag
Leave a comment:
-
Re: Is it still an espresso if I use a double basket and output 30ml?
Not sure what to make of that.
A standard commercial double filter in Australia (ie not the smaller italian market double filter), holds between around 18 to 20 grams depending on whether the operator updoses it or not, and also depending on the type of group on the brand of machine (ie ultimate position of shower wrt height of grinds in the filter).
The corresponding oz market commercial single filter holds around 12 grams of actual grinds...updosing much more than that will stop it engaging into the group.
Hope that helps.
A.
- Flag
Leave a comment:

Leave a comment: