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  • #16
    Hi, my name's Sam and I work for Pure Water Systems, I never normally do this when I see threads with misleading information, but I felt compelled to sign up just to reply and set some things straight.

    As a direct sales agent I am responsible for knocking on the doors of the public to convince them of the idea of drinking purified water. I agree that the water purification industry is comparable to the snake oil business, there is a lot of jargon and mythical information floating around in order to suck people in to buying inferior products at a cheaper price. I just have to say though, when it comes to people trying to do the right thing in this industry, in actual fact we are not talking about "shonky pseudo-science" but real chemicals and pollutants in our water supplies that we all ought to be aware of. I can't speak for the rest of the sales agents out there working for pws, but I certainly know we were drilled for a full week of training about the difference between carbon block and reverse osmosis filtration - namely, the inability of carbon to remove TDS from the water supply.

    Not once is it advertised or are we taught to push carbon filtration as reverse osmosis or vice versa, and I completely agree with you when you say that is a dodgy tactic! I, for one, would never recommend a countertop filter to a coffee shop (for a number of reasons)! Having said that, reverse osmosis is a very time consuming process, so if any of you have what's claimed to be a reverse osmosis system hooked up to your machine without a pressure holding tank you should start looking for the real deal

    In regards to the counter top system that bombora is offering for a much cheaper price, it only filters at a nominal level (meaning it can work between 6% and 95% efficiency at any given time), and only filters down to 0.5 of a micron - anyone who knows what they're talking about will know that ecoli can squeeze down to 0.4 of a micron, not to mention the other things getting through with that 0.1 of a micron difference. The cartridges that we use filter down to 0.4 of a micron at an absolute level, meaning they have 96%+ efficiency at all times, they are made from compressed carbon, contain a statically charged vegetable cellulose outer wrapping and a central membrane (so a 3 process filtration).

    The other thing you have to watch out for when purchasing a filtration system on the cheap is cheap plastics and chrome that can leech back into your water, and that's not even mentioning lack of warranties and after sale support

    Please, I would like to set these things straight and welcome any more questions or differing opinions!

    Cheers,
    Sam.

    Comment


    • #17
      Sam,

      The overwhelming body of what you have written has little relevance to coffee filtration.

      Originally posted by S4M View Post
      ....but I certainly know we were drilled for a full week of training about the difference between carbon block and reverse osmosis filtration - namely, the inability of carbon to remove TDS from the water supply.
      That took a whole week?

      Sorry buddy, but I place zero trust in those who knock on doors and then pitch "the script". I'll pass and I'll continue to use the products tested and recommended by a sponsor of high integrity.

      Try next door mate. They might be more gullible.
      Last edited by TC; 17 December 2012, 09:51 AM. Reason: added more info- the BS detector went off after a 2nd read...

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      • #18
        Sam,


        Our main reason for treating the water going through our coffee machines is to reduce lime scale formation affecting the efficiency of our equipment.

        The .4 micron filter that you recommend will be useless in reducing water hardness and will have no effect on reducing lime scale formation.

        Ion exchange is the main effective method used to soften the water that we use for coffee our machines.

        Most of us here do not run coffee shops and just produce coffee at home. so a bench top water treatment system may be suitable for many of us.

        Barry

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        • #19
          Hi Talk_coffee and Barry. Thanks for your warm welcome Barry, yes I understand exactly what you mean - you guys need Reverse Osmosis to remove TDS (totally dissolved solids), which is why I said I would never recommend a carbon block counter top to you (or undersink). For serving water in a commercial environment I think when we are talking about micron size, and the certain things that are left in/pulled out of the water it is very relevant, just as relevant as removing TDS in my opinion.

          All I am saying is our products never claim to do anything they don't or vice versa - we do have one of the best carbon block filtration systems around, but if one of our reps told you to use that inline to your coffee machine claiming it works the same as an RO system you should ring the company and report them! I understand your distrust in door knocking sales people Talk_coffee, I felt the same way until I was on the other side of the door, and still feel the same way with a lot of them - but in the end it's your dollar and your health, so if you end up continuing to buy inferior or cheaper cartridges that don't work quite as well or need to be replaced more often, or use cheaper plastics just because they are recommended by another company trying to make a dollar (isn't any company?) then I can't stop you from doing so, I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions here about the company i'm working for, and cheaper products that are claiming to do the same job for a cheaper price. Pws specialises in water filtration, and although yes it may be drinking water, it's not hard to read through this thread to see you were talking about TDS, which means you need an RO system (am I wrong?), that doesn't make my professionalism have any less relevance to your needs than say, bombora, does it?

          If you want to "leave it to the professionals" you are probably better off talking to a company that specialises in RO filtration, not one that specialises in coffee with a side serving of filtration

          Thanks again!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by S4M View Post
            Hi Talk_coffee and Barry. Thanks for your warm welcome Barry, yes I understand exactly what you mean - you guys need Reverse Osmosis to remove TDS (totally dissolved solids)..
            ....and by stating that, you just proved that you dont.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by S4M View Post
              Hi Talk_coffee and Barry. Thanks for your warm welcome Barry, yes I understand exactly what you mean - you guys need Reverse Osmosis to remove TDS (totally dissolved solids), which is why I said I would never recommend a carbon block counter top to you (or undersink). For serving water in a commercial environment I think when we are talking about micron size, and the certain things that are left in/pulled out of the water it is very relevant, just as relevant as removing TDS in my opinion.

              All I am saying is our products never claim to do anything they don't or vice versa - we do have one of the best carbon block filtration systems around, but if one of our reps told you to use that inline to your coffee machine claiming it works the same as an RO system you should ring the company and report them! I understand your distrust in door knocking sales people Talk_coffee, I felt the same way until I was on the other side of the door, and still feel the same way with a lot of them - but in the end it's your dollar and your health, so if you end up continuing to buy inferior or cheaper cartridges that don't work quite as well or need to be replaced more often, or use cheaper plastics just because they are recommended by another company trying to make a dollar (isn't any company?) then I can't stop you from doing so, I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions here about the company i'm working for, and cheaper products that are claiming to do the same job for a cheaper price. Pws specialises in water filtration, and although yes it may be drinking water, it's not hard to read through this thread to see you were talking about TDS, which means you need an RO system (am I wrong?), that doesn't make my professionalism have any less relevance to your needs than say, bombora, does it?

              If you want to "leave it to the professionals" you are probably better off talking to a company that specialises in RO filtration, not one that specialises in coffee with a side serving of filtration

              Thanks again!
              Morning Sam, what you have cleared up in my mind is the fact that your a salesman using scare tactics in an attempt to flog your products.
              Any company that feels the need to bad mouth a competitor as a sales tactic will never see a cent of my hard earned cash.

              Comment


              • #22
                I'm sorry Yelta, but i'm not sure what you mean by "scare tactics"? I wasn't trying to "bad mouth" anyone, I was just stating that bombora offers a lot more services/products than just filtration and it's a good idea to do some research about it all, the stuff I said about cheaper cartridges/plastics wasn't aimed at bombora at all, but working in this industry I do find a lot of cheap 'knock off' products (as you do in any industry). I'm sorry if that was taken the wrong way, i'm sure Bombora has some great products, the last thing I want to do is bad mouth any other company on a public forum!.. I'm not trying to flog any products here, just set some things straight about some misconceptions i've read.. and talk_coffee, so what is it that i'm missing? Doesn't calcium build up create scale? Calcium is a TDS is it not?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by S4M View Post
                  so what is it that i'm missing?
                  Wow! I'll have to keep monitoring this thread!
                  Don't be too hard on Sam guys. Like everyone here, he's entitled to an opinion and he's just doing a/his job.
                  Sponsors here (like Bombora), offer services and products to the public/coffee addicts, etc, with an equipment range/price for individual budgets and needs.
                  Everyone cannot afford a Rolls Royce, nor do they need one. Consumers like to have a choice. A good successful business should and can, supply the needs for both ends of the market.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Kevo View Post
                    Wow! I'll have to keep monitoring this thread!
                    Don't be too hard on Sam guys. Like everyone here, he's entitled to an opinion and he's just doing a/his job.
                    Sponsors here (like Bombora), offer services and products to the public/coffee addicts, etc, with an equipment range/price for individual budgets and needs.
                    Everyone cannot afford a Rolls Royce, nor do they need one. Consumers like to have a choice. A good successful business should and can, supply the needs for both ends of the market.
                    I hear what you say Kevo, however, when someone (read non sponsor) joins a forum like CoffeeSnobs for the express purpose of promoting a product on the cheap they are pretty much walking into the lions den.
                    I'm surprised the red pencil has not been applied.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Thanks Kevo, and you are exactly right! Yelta, as I stated before, i'm not trying to sell our products to anyone on here! In fact, I would say most of our products aren't suited to your line of work.. If there wasn't any misleading information on this thread titled "pure water filters" I wouldn't have felt compelled to join just to try and straighten it up! Telling people to go to a specialist in reverse osmosis filtration was not telling people to come to us over them, or anything like that - that is for you guys to decide who you think the specialist is, or whoever you think can give you a better service for your dollars worth (based on your own research).. I'm simply trying to level the playing field here!

                      I find it all too often on websites like these, people advising others to buy a cheaper filter that "does the same thing" when in fact it doesn't, or comparing RO to carbon block, or comparing the way we conduct our business to that of a dodgy snake oil salesman - I just don't think its quite justified to start slandering a company based on pure opinion, or throwing around opinions like they are factual - people end up being mislead into buying products that aren't doing what they thought they were and companies like mine end up getting a bad wrap because someone didn't like having their door knocked on (or whatever it is that has made them cynical in the first place).

                      I hope the moderators can see that I am only trying to straighten up misleading opinions and information on here, and as my comments are quite relevant and will be of some use to further people looking to find out whether pws is a dodgy company or not (for coffee machines or not) I hope that my comments won't be stricken from the records.

                      Thanks again for the back and forth!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by S4M View Post
                        TI hope the moderators can see that I am only trying to straighten up misleading opinions and information on here...
                        Why the spin then?

                        S4M- seems to me that regardless, you are here to "sell" your product- or at least its reputation.

                        You can become a sponsor by contacting Andy (the site owner) to discuss viability of a sponsorship if you so choose.

                        The key gotcha for espresso systems is scale. Your posts thus far indicate that you have yet to grasp that.

                        Most of what I have read so far is thinly veiled pitch.
                        Last edited by TC; 17 December 2012, 04:23 PM. Reason: shooting typos

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Sorry if you feel that way Talk_coffee, I understand that you are talking about scale, and as I stated before, isn't limescale caused mainly by calcium? Here is the wikipedia def. of limescale Limescale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - There it also states that calcium is the main culprit (you probably know this already but you seem to be not reading my posts).

                          Now, if i'm not mistaken, Reverse Osmosis will remove calcium, will it not? Anything short of that, or that does not work on an ionic level, won't - am I right? So what is it that i'm not addressing in regards to preventing limescale on your machines? Because a filter that removes calcium will also remove most other TDS, therefore softening your water.

                          Of course I am trying to save the reputation of the company I work for, as it is my livelihood that depends on the reputation of the company, but I don't think that stating "most of our products aren't suited for your line of work" is trying to sell our products :S do you?

                          I'll say it again, I actually don't want anyone on here to go out and buy a PWS system of any type, I just want people to know we aren't a dodgy company claiming block filters as R/O's or using "dodgy pseudo-science" to push people into sales, this is actually what makes my job a lot harder - people that go around doing those things and in turn giving ammunition for those wanting to convince others that the water purification industry is a scam.

                          Anyway, enough is enough - becoming a sponsor sounds like a brilliant idea, i'll definitely have to talk to my managers about it..

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            When i replaced the autoclave at my surgery a couple of years ago i was told the warranty would not be valid without the use of pure water. Was advised that a ro setup was best or else a cheaper steam distaller system, which is very slow. The installation company didnt sell ro units so no vested interest, they said that carbon filters werenot adequate. Both surgery and home are on tank water, at home typically 12 ppm tds so i have great water for beer making and coffee. If i lived in SA with their shitty water i would install a ro system for beer and coffee.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seamad View Post
                              If i lived in SA with their shitty water i would install a ro system for beer and coffee.
                              Steady on seamad, I agree it ain't perfect but it's not that bad, never heard of anyone getting crook from drinking the stuff.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Pure Water water filters

                                Looks like S4M may be in charge of damage control for PWS:

                                http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1826112

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