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A basic question: What is the difference of a latte and a strong latte?

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  • #16
    Barry-O’S,

    I believe that a hamburger without meat is a little like a cappuccino without coffee.

    Barry

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    • #17
      Originally posted by trentski View Post
      given that "machiatto" means marked or stained then a drink with more milk than a stain can't be considered a machiatto
      Correct, but a machiatto is the most similar drink to a cortado. By no means is the same.

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      • #18
        The actual meaning of Strong latte is this:

        Latte: one shot of espresso (30 ml) plus milk
        Strong Latte: Double ristretto (30ml of coffee, but only the strong oils extracted from a double shot) plus milk
        Double latte: 2 shots espresso (60 mls) plus milk

        That's why a strong is actually NOT a double, but most semi baristas wouldn't know the difference, most just do a double.

        As for Piccolo, it is generally accepted that it is 30ml espresso to 60ml milk, though that ratio doesn't keep the same name if it gets bigger, ie 90mls (triple shot) of coffee to 180mls of milk is not considered a large piccolo. Though next time I order in a cafe, I might have to try ordering a triple piccolo just to amuse myself.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ausnadian View Post
          The actual meaning of Strong latte is this:
          May I ask where you obtained such an authoritative definition that totally ignores the amount of milk used?

          The definitions you've provided are part of, but not the complete answers required to demonstrate competencies required for "prepare and serve espresso".

          1. A Caffe Latte is an espresso topped with silky-smooth milk, served in a 150m-220ml glass with 10mm of foam
          2. A "strong" coffee may be either 30-40ml of coffee (doppio ristretto) extracted using a double filter basket, or a doppio espresso 30-60ml extracted usinga a double basket.
          3. In regard to the piccolo, this can be either a 30ml espresso or a 15-20ml ristretto topped with silky-smooth milk, served in 60-90ml macchiato glass with 5ml of foam.

          Thanks to John Doyle's book Barista Techniques for the above.

          As for your triple piccolo - have you tried 30ml from a triple basket, with milk, etc?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Dennis View Post
            May I ask where you obtained such an authoritative definition that totally ignores the amount of milk used?

            The definitions you've provided are part of, but not the complete answers required to demonstrate competencies required for "prepare and serve espresso".

            1. A Caffe Latte is an espresso topped with silky-smooth milk, served in a 150m-220ml glass with 10mm of foam
            2. A "strong" coffee may be either 30-40ml of coffee (doppio ristretto) extracted using a double filter basket, or a doppio espresso 30-60ml extracted usinga a double basket.
            3. In regard to the piccolo, this can be either a 30ml espresso or a 15-20ml ristretto topped with silky-smooth milk, served in 60-90ml macchiato glass with 5ml of foam.

            Thanks to John Doyle's book Barista Techniques for the above.

            As for your triple piccolo - have you tried 30ml from a triple basket, with milk, etc?
            oh dear. This thread was so simple.

            Is a strong coffee a doppio ristretto or a double shot?

            Answer: It depends on how the cafe wants to serve it and what the customer is going to expect.
            There is no actual industry standard. There is no book that can tell you without exeption.

            A barista is not unknowing if he gives a full double as that may be to the expectation of the majority of their customers.

            I serve strongs as a full double shot. I have many customers who get this regularly and would consider a doppio ristretto too weak. I also have customers who ask for stronger/strongish coffee or specifically ask for a doppio ristrettos. Thats how we do it. I'm sure there are other places who would have their customers specifically ask for a double shot. Thats fine too.

            There is no right or wrong answer when you are a barista. There is only making the customer a coffee that they like or dislike.

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            • #21
              My thoughts have always been to look at the relative proportions of the "regular" drink and then adjust (if required) to maintain them as closely as possible.

              Eg: A Capp has often been defined as roughly 1:1:1 espresso/milk/microfoam- by height of cup- not volume

              To make a strong capp, you wish to maintain the relative proportions of the drink- therefore a dopp ristretto. In a big cap, you'd use a double and to do a strong big capp, you'd actually require 2 group handles to execute and maintain proportions.

              I agree with others that most operators suit themselves- based on their education/understanding or lack thereof. It's a veritable lucky dip...

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              • #22
                I like what Ausnadian in saying - it actually makes sense & thanks for the education! But, my thoughts are that people don't really know what they are ordering when they say a strong or a double 'whatever'. Not in my part of the woods anyway. (Although maybe I'm kidding myself?!) I think that they just want a stronger coffee than what they have had before and have heard people use the term 'double'......Your definition is food for thought for me - maybe I will adopt this....?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by muppet_man67 View Post
                  oh dear. This thread was so simple.

                  Is a strong coffee a doppio ristretto or a double shot?

                  Answer: It depends on how the cafe wants to serve it and what the customer is going to expect.
                  There is no actual industry standard. There is no book that can tell you without exeption.

                  A barista is not unknowing if he gives a full double as that may be to the expectation of the majority of their customers.

                  I serve strongs as a full double shot. I have many customers who get this regularly and would consider a doppio ristretto too weak. I also have customers who ask for stronger/strongish coffee or specifically ask for a doppio ristrettos. Thats how we do it. I'm sure there are other places who would have their customers specifically ask for a double shot. Thats fine too.

                  PS. Whenever someone came into the cafe I used to own and asked for a 'strong' coffee, I used to ask how they would describe the word 'strong'. It confused most people. Rarely did they ultimately describe 'strong' as a big belt of coffee. In the vast majority of cases, they agreed that 'strong' meant that they would be able to experience "a pleasant, long-lasting flavour."

                  There is no right or wrong answer when you are a barista. There is only making the customer a coffee that they like or dislike.
                  Hello mm

                  I don't understand why you decided to quote me for your 'oh dear...' remark. After all, it wasn't me who came up with non-supported, incorrect info.

                  "Prepare and Serve Espresso" is a nationally accredited and recognised course here in Australia, and the information I provided above, comes from a text used nationally as reference material for the course. If you do the course these are the standards that will be taught and expected of you.

                  Because the cafe you work in chooses to do it another way is up to the owner. I don't dispute that but it's wrong to infer that the reason you do this is because there is no industry standard. I just hope every barista who works at your place does it the same way.

                  "There is only making the customer a coffee that they like or dislike." Nicely said!

                  If you scratch under the surface and ask your customers how they would describe the word 'strong' you will find they don't want a coffee that is like an assault on their taste buds, but rather, a pleasant flavour that doesn't dissipate quickly but lingers for 20 minutes or more.
                  Last edited by Dennis; 6 October 2012, 07:36 PM. Reason: additional info

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                  • #24
                    If you scratch under the surface and ask your customers how they would describe the word 'strong' you will find they don't want a coffee that is like an assault on their taste buds, but rather, a pleasant flavour that doesn't dissipate quickly but lingers for 20 minutes or more.

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                    • #25
                      I usually just ask for a latte on a double ristretto base....reduces room for confusion, and I generally get something close to what I'm after.

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                      • #26
                        I am really very tempted to comment on this thread, but I fear that Shakespeare has beaten me to it

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
                          I usually just ask for a latte on a double ristretto base....reduces room for confusion, and I generally get something close to what I'm after.
                          I went to a fairly well known cafe in Sydney and asked for exactly that - a latte on a double ristretto base. The response - "So you want a weak latte?". Fortunately, the barista overheard and told the waiter that she knew what I wanted.
                          Last edited by flynnaus; 6 October 2012, 08:52 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by flynnaus View Post
                            I went to a fairly well known cafe in Sydney and asked for exactly that - a latte on a double ristretto base. The response - "So you want a weak latte?". Fortunately, the barista overheard and told the waiter that she knew what I wanted.
                            Yeh, it's a bit trickier if ordering from a table. I ordered a ristretto at a cafe after a lunch meeting and the poor young lass replied 'I'm sorry I don't think we do that'...so I asked her to give me 1/2 a double espresso and quite a nice (near) ristretto came back.

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                            • #29
                              I wasn't talking about different sizes, but more of the standard latte glass you get in most places. I think what people don't get, is that if every barista had the same standards, then ordering wouldn't be such a confusing time. Strong should mean strong, double should mean double. Like Chris said, then the barista could adjust amount based on the volume ordered.
                              So if a large take away normal latte = 2 shots, then a strong large take away would be two double ristrettos. So amount stays the same. Milk will always be a variable as different cups will always = different milk proportions, and not many would accept a large cup with the tide out because the barista says it's "in proportion" with the amount of espresso
                              This is how I ran my machine, and I had very few complaints. In the end, if the barista stays true to the way they make it, the customer will be able to say "that double was a bit strong" and next time will confidently be able to order a strong instead.

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                              • #30
                                A basic question: What is the difference of a latte and a strong latte?

                                Aaaah yes, the snobbery of it all... :tic

                                I'm a tradie and I spose a bit 'rough round the edges'...

                                I don't know for how many years I used to stubbornly order a 'cup of chino' somehow believing 'chino' was the Italian word for coffee...

                                And for the missus it was a 'cup of chino'- in a glass... Cause that was just a girlie drink...

                                It took me years and years to actually order a 'Latte'....

                                Now, you want me to order a Piccolo eh?

                                Yeah right... And it's gonna be made by a real short guy in a green suit wearing a pointy hat and a gold ring on his left pinkie finger and a diamond set into his right front tooth?

                                What on earth will they come up with next?

                                :can't wait

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