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  • Would you pay this much? I wouldn't! :)

    A local cafe near my house...
    and my reaction

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    I think it's ridiculously over-priced, what're your thoughts? Worth it?

  • #2
    Not when I know that I can come here and get better for less...

    Comment


    • #3
      Possibly- These days it's way too light for my espresso machine, so it would have to be a manual method...

      Have to agree with Scoots. If it's browns, I'd be shopping here too!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by scoota_gal View Post
        Not when I know that I can come here and get better for less...
        My point exactly

        Comment


        • #5
          It's like everything - there's a lot of variety out there at wildly different prices - one man's bargain is another's rip-off.
          It is probably about where you are in your product knowledge and how much research you have done on the alternatives.

          Comment


          • #6
            pre-roasted stuff is too light for your machine? I'm a little confused!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Rocky View Post
              It's like everything - there's a lot of variety out there at wildly different prices - one man's bargain is another's rip-off.
              It is probably about where you are in your product knowledge and how much research you have done on the alternatives.
              Wildly different prices is one thing that's for sure! I guess if I had a "you get what you pay for" mentality about coffee I'd probably buy it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Aleanbean View Post
                pre-roasted stuff is too light for your machine? I'm a little confused!
                Yes- for my palate, under-roasted, tea-like and sour. It can work well as a pourover and using other manual methods. I prefer my espresso not to be mistaken for lemons.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aleanbean View Post
                  A local cafe near my house...
                  and my reaction

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]1730[/ATTACH]

                  I think it's ridiculously over-priced, what're your thoughts? Worth it?
                  Not uncommon Aleanbean. It's more about what you want and how much you want it.
                  As I type, I have 3 cards in front of me, from a Melbourne cafe roaster, for the following: CoE Rwanda ****** Lot3 @$25/250gms
                  A Brazil ******Santo @18/250gms and an El Salvador El ***** @$16/250gms.


                  I was given these coffees, would I pay for them? No way.
                  They're all "lemons", all thin and all sour from the roast level, just as Chris describes, they muck up my grind adjustment and they simply don't work
                  as espresso, they are for alternative brews, where they have interest, of sorts.

                  If you look on Beanbay roasted coffee, the price varies from $35/kg (most of them) to $140/kg (one).
                  You will find cheaper prices from some suppliers but a lot of the lower priced roasts will be commodity beans of a lower grade than what Andy has.

                  However, it does bring up a point of interest for me personally, as I have a previous background in agriculture. Many city folk would also, hopefully,
                  be aware of the 'milk price war' currently being conducted by supermarkets. Consumers might like cheap milk but someone has to pay and it's the farmer.

                  If we, in the west, want to enjoy our luxuries, we have to be prepared to pay for them, this includes our coffee.
                  Do you know of any wealthy African coffee farmers, or Central American or PNG farmers? Have you seen any of these people holidaying at Noosa?
                  These questions are, of course rhetorical and not aimed at any one personally.

                  There are over 100 million people involved in coffee production around the world, 90% of them are from third world countries,
                  the remainder from emerging economies like India and Brazil. Australia and Hawaii are about the only first world producers I can think of.

                  But the fact remains......... we want to pay less so we can indeed holiday at Noosa or even go overseas
                  and marvel at the third world, primitive and underprivileged life our coffee farming friends have and how they have to exist
                  in order to put beans in our grinders.
                  I sincerely believe that coffee, for the most part, is underpriced at the farm gate and although the middleman
                  syndrome is rife in this market and it should be overhauled, we should all be paying more as end users.
                  And don't get me started on how the 'free on loan machine' deal that exists in our roasting industry makes fair prices for the coffee impossible...........

                  Just as fair-trade is unfair and not much more than a western marketing device............ no, I digress. That's an argument for another day.

                  So, is $50 kg too much? Yes and no! If it's amongst the best coffee you have ever had the privilege to drink and the farmer
                  is getting a sustainable share of that price then it's all good. If though, the coffee is under roasted to suit an inner city trend
                  and priced just to be fashionable and elite and the farmer is not getting a fair share and still only eeking out a living then yes, it's way over priced.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Of course, it's a much more complex argument than what I have written above but paying a fair price for beans means that the whole
                    industry benefits, from the farmer to the consumer.

                    However, it's food for thought.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=chokkidog

                      You will find cheaper prices from some suppliers but a lot of the lower priced roasts will be commodity beans of a lower grade than what Andy has.

                      [/QUOTE]

                      I do not want to start a bun fight as to how good or not the coffee is from beanbay. The above comment may be true most of the time, but there are suppliers who do use beans equal to or better than what Andy offers. Some of them even sell their product cheaper. However..... taste is everything. And everyone is individual. I like to try a variety of beans, roasted by different people, as the result is always different. Value for money is hard to define.
                      If you drink espresso, the beans need to be roasted adequately. There is a trend where coffee is lightly roasted for espresso and sold in miniscule volumes {ristretto}. This drink is heralded as having all sorts of fruit notes. I disagree with their analysis as most of the time the drink is way too sour.
                      To the coffee community who enjoy lightly roasted coffee as pourover, siphon, plunger, etc this type of coffee is perfect, and exhibits wonderful flavours.
                      Not all coffee is suitable for espresso, and just because it has a high price tag, does not mean it is best served this way. Sometimes, beans for espresso can be sourced cheaply. This has nothing to do with their quality. Some coffees with high price tags, are not suitable for espresso.

                      The beans for sale may well be worth every cent to some. If you factor in that no postage has to be paid, the beans are reasonably priced if you can pick them up while walking.

                      There are too many variables in coffee, discovering what appeals to you is part of the fun. Enjoy the journey.

                      Before buying the beans, try them first. Ask for a sample, or buy a coffee and see if it rocks your world.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by chokkidog View Post
                        Not uncommon Aleanbean. It's more about what you want and how much you want it.
                        As I type, I have 3 cards in front of me, from a Melbourne cafe roaster, for the following: CoE Rwanda ****** Lot3 @$25/250gms
                        A Brazil ******Santo @18/250gms and an El Salvador El ***** @$16/250gms.


                        I was given these coffees, would I pay for them? No way.
                        They're all "lemons", all thin and all sour from the roast level, just as Chris describes, they muck up my grind adjustment and they simply don't work
                        as espresso, they are for alternative brews, where they have interest, of sorts.

                        If you look on Beanbay roasted coffee, the price varies from $35/kg (most of them) to $140/kg (one).
                        You will find cheaper prices from some suppliers but a lot of the lower priced roasts will be commodity beans of a lower grade than what Andy has.

                        However, it does bring up a point of interest for me personally, as I have a previous background in agriculture. Many city folk would also, hopefully,
                        be aware of the 'milk price war' currently being conducted by supermarkets. Consumers might like cheap milk but someone has to pay and it's the farmer.

                        If we, in the west, want to enjoy our luxuries, we have to be prepared to pay for them, this includes our coffee.
                        Do you know of any wealthy African coffee farmers, or Central American or PNG farmers? Have you seen any of these people holidaying at Noosa?
                        These questions are, of course rhetorical and not aimed at any one personally.

                        There are over 100 million people involved in coffee production around the world, 90% of them are from third world countries,
                        the remainder from emerging economies like India and Brazil. Australia and Hawaii are about the only first world producers I can think of.

                        But the fact remains......... we want to pay less so we can indeed holiday at Noosa or even go overseas
                        and marvel at the third world, primitive and underprivileged life our coffee farming friends have and how they have to exist
                        in order to put beans in our grinders.
                        I sincerely believe that coffee, for the most part, is underpriced at the farm gate and although the middleman
                        syndrome is rife in this market and it should be overhauled, we should all be paying more as end users.
                        And don't get me started on how the 'free on loan machine' deal that exists in our roasting industry makes fair prices for the coffee impossible...........

                        Just as fair-trade is unfair and not much more than a western marketing device............ no, I digress. That's an argument for another day.

                        So, is $50 kg too much? Yes and no! If it's amongst the best coffee you have ever had the privilege to drink and the farmer
                        is getting a sustainable share of that price then it's all good. If though, the coffee is under roasted to suit an inner city trend
                        and priced just to be fashionable and elite and the farmer is not getting a fair share and still only eeking out a living then yes, it's way over priced.
                        Wow, I've thought all of this before but have never been bothered to type it out

                        You're right about the milk war, I personally try to stick with the little guys who have a much better product anyway.

                        I'm new to the roasting thing and the concept of light roasts mucking up grinders is new too - are you saying that espresso should only bee a dark roast?

                        Unfortunately a lot of people around the world would make more money growing poppies than coffee...

                        Thanks for your insight!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Add to this, that the selling price doesnt have to have anything to do with what anyone may think is the cost of the raw material. There is a conversion factor that includes all the ON COSTS of running the business, plus a fair profit (to which everyone is entitled). And on small runs of "special" products, the cost overall to bring it to the clients cant help but be higher and ergo, the result will be a higher retail price. In fact the cost of bringing small run special items to the clients will vary depending on the individual business that is doing the "conversion". So, its not necessarily as simple as it may seem at first.

                          Quick and dirty example. A roasting business may do all its "regular" roasting on say...a 30 kilo batch roaster, with multiple batch laods run through once the equipment is ignited. But to offer "specials", the business may be running a 5 kilo roaster that is only used for the special runs. There is the capital cost of the (extra) equipment, the extra running costs AND, while running the 30 kilo roaster the cost of the roasting operator is much much lower per hour per kilo, than to have the operator spend a few hours a week running off much smaller batches. ie the cost per hour per kilo for the opertator is very high. How does anyone cost out the hidden cost of running small batches out for clients? Factor in, that these specials dont really contribute much to a businesses overall profit (due to very small turnover compared to the much higher turnover "bread and butter" blends and coffees that a roaster or business actually trades on).

                          That doesnt mean I agree (or disagree) with paying what someone else thinks is a high price for something, and I cant see there is a definitive answer to *what IS a "fair" price"*, which is my interpretation of the discussion topic here. There are plenty of examples that what suits one client wont suit another, and it takes all kinds, to make the world go round.

                          PS to Aleanbean. wrt your comment about "light roasts mucking up grinders". Afraid that is not what was meant in the above discussion. I am happy to advise that light roasts dont muck up grinders....what was meant is that light roasts simply dont suit traditional style espresso. You can run light roasts through the grinder and make espresso, but they just wont taste right, generally speaking they result in sourness and or very high acidity in the espresso. Its just not the right flavour profile for traditional style espresso, and light roasts are better suited to other brewing methods.

                          Hope that helps.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hey Bosco and Attilio,

                            Thanks for contributing to the discussion! It's not about whether anyone's roast is better quality or value than someone else's.
                            I agree that these parameters, expanded by Bosco, are way too relative to make hard and fast 'rules' and like I mentioned
                            in my follow up post, the issue is way more complex than the slice I put up for discussion. I also welcome the broadening of the discussion,
                            my bent is the farmer and what ends up in their pocket and to make the whole process, from farm to cup, enjoyable and profitable for all the stages
                            of production involved. No price,at the higher end of the scale, is a 'fair price', if the farmer is doing a good job
                            but isn't sharing in the dividend.

                            My comment about commodity quality beans relates to the fact that the vast majority of beans traded around the globe are
                            in multiple container size lots and are far removed from the much smaller specialty market that most of us operate in.
                            Comparing them to Beanbay is just a point of reference. I spend much time on quality control of my own product and
                            coupled with being out in the bush a bit, I don't get to see the broader retail market as much as what I would like or should.
                            This does affect my perspective somewhat.

                            Attilio, it was me who first said that lighter roasts muck up my grinder, not the grinder itself but the adjustment thereof.
                            I've found it easier to have a separate grinder, (a Skelton) for light roasts, for cupping or press, rather than changing the
                            grind setting on my espresso grinder backwards and forwards with the inevitable 'sinking' of some coffee, (some of it pretty exxy too!).

                            I enjoy some light roasts and currently have two beans in my artillery that are perfect for light roasts and less than perfect for
                            espresso, so horses for courses, however paying up to $100/kg for beans that cup really well but don't necessarily translate into
                            coffee drinking applications says something about what Attilio alluded to in his post.
                            If we have to pay $100/kg for coffee that was landed for $20/kg then the consumer is paying not the value of the coffee
                            but for the business model of the roaster/retailer and although, to some, this might be an acceptable value, to me it has a fundamental flaw
                            which relates not just to business models or coffee quality but to morals and ethics, when put in terms of the benefit to the grower.

                            Call me a pinky lefty, a sentimentalist, or just mental, that's ok!! Just don't call me a communist!! 8-D.........please.

                            Aleanbean, I hope you don't mind that I've used your original post to put forward some of my thoughts.
                            Your question about darker roasts being more suited to espresso is a good question, once again there are no hard and fast rules.
                            It is the skill of the roaster to find the 'sweet spot' for a given bean or pre roast blend of beans. If the roast is too light the
                            high pressure extraction of an espresso shot will reveal thin and sour and sometimes quite acidic coffee, likewise if the roast is too dark
                            the sugars will be burnt and the coffee will show a dark caramel bitterness with little acidity and no 'life'.
                            Hitting the mark is about achieving the balance between acidity and sugar development and achieving the body character
                            potential of the beans being used.
                            The perfect espresso roast, for any one, suitable bean, will generally fall between a medium and dark roast.

                            So much in life is a question of balance!!

                            And coffee roasted to at least first crack ( or even less - I've never tried) won't harm your grinder!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Would you pay this much? I wouldn't!

                              Interesting how the same question can be answered from so many different perspectives...

                              Assuming i tried it and liked the taste...
                              Whether I would pay this amount or not would depend more on whether I felt it was good value or not?
                              That would depend on how the product was marketed or not to me. On face value of what has been seen here there appears to be little or no justification of the price?
                              Price is very VERY elastic... But in order to break a perceived price ceiling- the reason 'why' needs to be carefully explained or justified...

                              Perfume is one of those really bizarre products where it has been proved time and time again that raising the price can result in increased sales volume...

                              I'm a tradesman- in a specialist niche. I routinely have clients tell me my prices are two-Three times what 'others' have quoted... I still have a 40% strike rate on cold calls from advertising... I very clearly understand my client and I'm very good at explaining to my clients why they should use me... However, I only appeal to people who are prepared to pay a little more for a better job. I NEVER get the 'price only' buyers...
                              And frankly I don't want them... PIA!

                              Another example: is $50,000 to much to pay for a car?
                              1) Well the Great Wall people make it their marketing theme that the answer is a resounding "Yes"
                              2) A Toyota Hilux Dual cab 4wd buyer would think he got an absolute bargain!
                              3) A Mercedes SL 500 seller might be concerned you can barely afford the deposit...

                              So what can one say to answer the question but, "Maybe, Depends!"

                              Comment

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