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Is there something wrong with my tastebuds?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
    It might also be because they actually do taste citrus. To quote directly from coffeechemistry.com - the leading information portal on coffee science and chemistry

    "Like all living organisms, citric acid plays an important role as a key intermediate compound in the [coffee]plant's metabolic life. In green coffee, citric acid [imparts citrus flavours/aromas] along with malic [green apple flavours/aromas] and quinic [bitter & astringent] acid constitute a significant portion of coffee's total acid content and in the development of perceived acidity.
    During roasting, citric acid reaches a maximum at light to medium roasts, then quickly diminishes as roasting levels progress. A typical medium roast will lose about 50% of its initial citric acid concentration and diminishes further as roasting progresses."

    Having said that, they also add:

    "With an intensely sour/sharp charateristic, excessive citric acid in coffee is detrimental to quality. In the beverage industry, commonly uses citric acid as a food acidulant imparting sharp sour and tart notes. However, when this occurs in coffee it is typically an indicator of poor post harvest separation. If care is not taken to separate unripe green beans from ripened red ones, the batch can severely be affected. This is beacause green unripe beans contain underdeveloped sugar which do not fully develop during roasting - commonly appearing as lighter color beans (quakers). "

    Just someone else's two cents worth.
    I'm familiar with coffeechemistry and have spent some time with Joseph.

    I don't believe we are going through a phase of poor harvest separation. I do believe that the coffees I am referring to we're simply under roasted and consequently sour.

    It would be easier to be impressed by someone who insists a coffee is 'full of citrus' if they were able to identify which citrus fruit flavour was more evident.

    Now, should we talk about the difference between sour and bitter and the confusion that creates?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by javabeen View Post
      Try a lower dose and finer grind. Your grinder is a conical right? I noticed my shots were alot brighter when years ago i moved to a mazzer kony and dropping the dose and grinding finer helped with this.

      If that doesnt help then leave the light roasts for non espresso brew methods.

      Have fun
      Javabeen.
      Hi Javabeen,

      Yes, the K10 is a large conical. During the 'getting to know you' phase when I upgraded to the K10 and La Spaz I worked out that the La Spaz delivers best results with a lower dose at a finer grind and firm tamp, so this is usually the starting point when I try new beans.

      You're right too about the brew methods - this latest batch of beans is going to the office where it will be ok with the aeropress as a long black

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
        "... During roasting, citric acid reaches a maximum at light to medium roasts, then quickly diminishes as roasting levels progress. A typical medium roast will lose about 50% of its initial citric acid concentration and diminishes further as roasting progresses."
        Thanks for the quote from coffeechemistry - I'm not familiar with this site, I'll have to check it out. The line about citric acid levels during the roasting phases explains a lot - like Chokkidog's comments about 3rd wave roasting. I wouldn't put it down to poor post harvest separation, unless this is a global problem because I've had the same results from beans sourced from India, Indonesia, Brazil, Colombia, Guatemala etc..

        It just seems to be trendy at the moment to roast on the lighter side, but I just don't see the attraction..

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        • #19
          I have been away from the forum for a while and have as a result fallen out of touch with what is happening in the industry.

          It's interesting though, at home after much experimentation, I have more or less settled on the bean blend and roast I like however reading the newspapers I kept being told certain cafes were 'pushing' the boundaries of coffee in Sydney and have been constantly being awarded for doing so. I did, and have repeatedly tried coffees from these places (and note that other new start ups are starting to use these beans) but this discussion talks directly to my experience of those coffees.

          To my mouth, this new wave acid trip everyone is in is just too challenging to my taste buds. Call me traditional but I like a bit of grace these days and not to have to pucker when I enjoy a brew with a friend.

          I don't take milk with my ristrettos but I imagine that those drinks would actually be a bit more interesting and tolerable in this new acid wave, just a thought.

          Great discussion, and feels good to be back.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Dennis View Post
            Now, should we talk about the difference between sour and bitter and the confusion that creates?
            As a Certified Wine Educator I have come across this issue a lot. I must confeess that I really never understood the confusion because, for me, the differences between sourness and bitterness are very clearcut. The answer to your question Dennis is pretty simple. It's all about the taste receptors in your mouth. Acids are perceived by tastebuds on the sides of your tongue whereas bitterness is detected at the back of your tongue, the base of the throat and the roof of the mouth. So, if your palate isn't sensitive enough to differentiate sour vs bitter by taste or feel alone then you should be able to tell them apart by where you feel them.

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            • #21

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              • #22
                If only it were that simple.

                Tongue map - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                Pete

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by jools View Post
                  Hi all,

                  I'm hoping someone can help me out here - I've been buying roasted beans from lots of different places - some single origins, some blends. I let people know that I drink a double shot ristretto and ask for bean recommendations. I get the beans home, grind 'em up and pull a shot. The shot looks good so I taste it and it's like I've just sucked on a lemon - there's some coffee taste in there but all I get is this massive spike being driven up through the roof of my mouth.

                  I used to think it was because the beans were too fresh so I've waited a few days, a week or two and sometimes the beans have settled down a little but the result is still pretty much the same. I think it's because the beans have been roasted a bit light. The beans I tend to like look obviously darker and have a broader flavour.

                  The thing I don't understand is that the beans have come from award-winning roasters and some of the beans have also won awards, so someone somewhere obviously enjoys drinking coffee like this.

                  What am I missing? What is so pleasant about sucking on a lemon?
                  It's obviously a taste a lot of people enjoy Jools, when I was a kid it was par for the course to serve a slice of lemon with black coffee, something I haven't seen done in a lot of years.

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                  • #24
                    My question re sour versus bitter was intended to be tongue in cheek.

                    As Pete has pointed out more delicately than I, the tongue map is prettying rubbish. Try putting some salt on the top of your tongue and it will still taste salty without a hint of sweetness.

                    Oh, and Franco, I think these 'citrus' coffees are even worse with milk. Have you ever tried orange, lemon, grapefruit, in milk? It's awful!

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                    • #25
                      Yes... if it only were that simple. To quote directly from the Wiki entry cited above: "So, while some parts of the tongue may be able to detect a taste before the others do, all parts are equally good at conveying the qualia of all tastes." So... to clarify my earlier statement, noting where on your palate you FIRST detect either sour or bitter elements will help provide a clue as to whether it is indeed sour or bitter. In any event, if one's palate isn't able to readily distinguish the sourness of lemon juice from the bitterness of lemon pith then there ain't too much any amount of reading will do to help them. Some people just don't have "it" and never will.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Yelta View Post
                        It's obviously a taste a lot of people enjoy Jools, when I was a kid it was par for the course to serve a slice of lemon with black coffee, something I haven't seen done in a lot of years.
                        Espresso with a twist of lemon? Like Serge in Beverly Hills Cop?

                        Beverly Hills Cop (2/10) Movie CLIP - Serge & Achmed (1984) HD - YouTube

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                        • #27
                          As an interesting aside to the sour/bitter discussion; it seems that the taste receptors for these elements are situated
                          in such a way to prevent us from swallowing spoiled food (sour) or poisonous plant based food (bitter) by triggering the reflexes
                          to expel the offending substance.
                          Some interesting reading today also threw light on gender and genetic differences in taste perception.

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                          • #28
                            Is there something wrong with my tastebuds?

                            Originally posted by chokkidog View Post
                            As an interesting aside to the sour/bitter discussion; it seems that the taste receptors for these elements are situated
                            in such a way to prevent us from swallowing spoiled food (sour) or poisonous plant based food (bitter) by triggering the reflexes
                            to expel the offending substance.
                            Some interesting reading today also threw light on gender and genetic differences in taste perception.
                            What about ageing or changes in the pallet as we mature?

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                            • #29
                              Sincerely hope you don't have a "pallet" in your mouth... splinters from the timber would be a definite risk

                              As for your palate... it can change over the years... with sensitivity diminishing for some, and even improving for others. Smoking, recreational pharmaceuticals, medication and alcohol consumption can impact the palate greatly as well.

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                              • #30
                                Also let's not forget that not everybody has the same sensitivity to taste. People have varying densities of taste buds and as such there is a huge difference in what people can and can't taste.

                                Based on the density of taste buds scientists have come up with 3 different categories of tasters: Super-tasters, normal tasters, and non-tasters. The rough distribution of these in the populace is 25% are super-tasters, 50% are normal tasters, and 25% are non-tasters with more women (35%) being super-tasters than men (15%).

                                In general the stronger and more undrinkable one finds grapefruit and lemon juice to be the further they are towards the super-taster end of the spectrum.


                                Java "Puckering up and shuddering at the mere thought of drinking lemon or grapefruit juice" phile
                                Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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