If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
For a standard espresso 30ml in 30 seconds is what you get using a single shot basket. For a double shot basket the standard is 60ml in 30 seconds.
Java "Sipping away" phile
What I don't understand is if for a double shot basket (more grounds = higher resistance), how can 60ml/30secs (faster extraction) be achieved unless we grind the beans coarser? Or put it another way, variables that go into a shot (as I understand it) are grind_size, grind_amount, tamp_pressure, basket_size; which gets you the extraction rate. So to get a faster extraction rate and the basket size is increased, shouldn't that mean other variables needs to also be adjusted?
What I don't understand is if for a double shot basket (more grounds = higher resistance), how can 60ml/30secs (faster extraction) be achieved unless we grind the beans coarser? Or put it another way, variables that go into a shot (as I understand it) are grind_size, grind_amount, tamp_pressure, basket_size; which gets you the extraction rate. So to get a faster extraction rate and the basket size is increased, shouldn't that mean other variables needs to also be adjusted?
Thanks.
The double basket is not simply a single basket scaled up by 100%. The shape of the basket (the single basket 'tapers' in such that the base of the basket is of lesser diameter than the open end, the number of holes, the ratio of the area of those holes to the basic dimensions of the basket are all different etc.
The double basket is not simply a single basket scaled up by 100%. The shape of the basket (the single basket 'tapers' in such that the base of the basket is of lesser diameter than the open end, the number of holes, the ratio of the area of those holes to the basic dimensions of the basket are all different etc.
So am I right to expect that if I can get the double basket to hit 60ml in 30secs, using the same grind size, technique etc. (obviously the amount of grounds will differ), I can generally get 30ml using the single basket?
Also I was reading through my machine (EM7000)'s manual (please let me know if this is deviating and hijacking this thread), it said not to extract more than 30mls? Does this sound like it's the bottomline or that only applies to a single basket condition (which I can't seemed to see if mentioned)?
Last edited by Brenchen; 8 February 2015, 09:28 PM.
So am I right to expect that if I can get the double basket to hit 60ml in 30secs, using the same grind size, technique etc. (obviously the amount of grounds will differ), I can generally get 30ml using the single basket?
Yep, basically, but you'll have less margin for error with the single basket. Small variations in technique will have a greater effect effect on the outcome.
Also I was reading through my machine (EM7000)'s manual (please let me know if this is deviating and hijacking this thread), it said not to extract more than 30mls? Does this sound like it's the bottomline or that only applies to a single basket condition (which I can't seemed to see if mentioned)?
That sounds like a condition referring to the assumed use of a single basket.
This doesn't mean that you *have* to extract a full 60mls when using the double (or the full 30mls)....Many people prefer a slightly shorter pour for at least some beans (e.g 25mls/50 mls or so).
An alternate equivalent metric is that a 'normal' espresso produces approx 2 x the mass of brewed coffee to ground coffee (e.g. 30g of brewed coffee from 15g of ground coffee, 30g of brewed coffee represents approximately 60mls of brewed coffee *including crema*).
So am I right to expect that if I can get the double basket to hit 60ml in 30secs, using the same grind size, technique etc. (obviously the amount of grounds will differ), I can generally get 30ml using the single basket?
G'day Brenchen
As BOS said so well - holes sizes etc vary so "all things being equal" a double will extract at twice the speed, a triple at three times the speed etc. Reality check - it usually will get you close enough to dial it in unless you are using VST / LM baskets, and even then some CSr's claim it it not 100% accurate. As usual, Javaphile is 100% correct - a single is 30ml in 30 seconds, a triple is 90ml in 30 seconds (all figures counting preinfusion, which is crazy in itself). Unfortunately, among a large number of other confounding factors, grind size affects the surface area to volume ratio which affects the extraction speed. That makes the "30 seconds timing" rather a rough approximation. If the coffee is good, you must be getting closer to the setup your gear prefers.
Also I was reading through my machine (EM7000)'s manual (please let me know if this is deviating and hijacking this thread), it said not to extract more than 30mls? Does this sound like it's the bottomline or that only applies to a single basket condition (which I can't seemed to see if mentioned)?
As 6910 & 7000 owner, the SB single is close to my VST single - which is a 7g shot IF dosed to the rated capacity (most CSr's don't). The VST double is 15g, the SB double is nominally 16g. I suspect it is 16.5+g really, it is almost exactly halfway between a VST 15g and a VST 18g in size. That means it is more than twice the size of a single in the first place, and it should be extracting a little more than 60ml in the "30 seconds"...
The other issue - wet puck - every late 6910 (post 2010) and 7000 I have encountered places a small amount of water at low pressure in the basket after the shot is pulled. AFAIAC, this help to prevent the grouphead clogging up with grounds, other CSrs dispute that. Regardless, your 7000 will always have a layer of water on the top of the puck. FWIW, I reckon the only use in examining the 7000's pucks is to tell whether you are getting channelling.
Agreed Dimal. I put nearly 15gms in a VST 7gm single and dial that in to deliver a great ristretto. It passes the coin test believe it or not and is my favourite drink. I think the VST manufacturers would be horrified!!! There are no rules with coffee making, only guidelines.
It's a Notional Capacity mate, not a rated capacity...
Mal.
G'day Mal
VST rate their baskets at +/-1.0 g. Notional capacity is a very different concept. Given the need to use some sort of reference as a starting point to explain recommended shot timings without quoting a mass of links, I reckon it is fair enough.
VST themselves state in one of their FAQs "Use the recommended dose of coffee for a given basket (i.e. 20g +/- 1g in the 20g basket). If you err, it is best to do so on the low side (down to 19g). Do not use more than the recommended (21g) dose, doing so will force a coarser grind, which reduces the extraction yield as much as 1 - 2%, producing sour taste defects". In my experience, every gram after that drops the extraction ratio even more.
As a side note, the rest of the 5 pages probably have more intelligent comments on preparing espresso than anything else I have seen except my Illy "Espresso Coffee" which takes over 350 pages of fairly heavy going to provide a lot more testing data and reaches most of the same conclusions (clearly the VSTs higher flow rate & the resulting issues are not in the Illy book as it was written before VSTs were developed).
Agreed Dimal. I put nearly 15gms in a VST 7gm single and dial that in to deliver a great ristretto. It passes the coin test believe it or not and is my favourite drink. I think the VST manufacturers would be horrified!!! There are no rules with coffee making, only guidelines.
Barri, there may be no rules, however after VST and LM pooled a few million dollars together to develop their baskets, they may know what they are talking about regarding their use...
IMO, the "5 cent test" is probably responsible for destroying more good beans in a VST than any other factor. By traditional standards, a VST requires:-
1) a massively finer grind (about 30% "below standard espresso"). Most traditional grinders struggle to achieve that without generating excess fines - which leads to extreme bitterness.
2) a severe underdose (about 4mm of space from the top of the basket is a good starting point).
3) Preinfusion can make a huge difference to a VST shot compared to trad setups. Some roasts like a preinfusion time of up to 40 seconds (makes the "30 seconds including preinfusion concept" a complete farce). My personal refractometer readings showed clear differences directly related to preinfusion, so it was affecting both the quality AND quantity of flavour in the cup.
Scales are a really good idea to dial them in. Just weigh some grounds consistently at some figure near their rated dose and then adjust the grind to get the shot timing.
If your grinder is not up to it, you will know instantly ("mouthful of quinine" effect). Try cleaning and recalibrating the grinder and try again. If no joy, try to get hold of a really good "finer than espresso grinder" and you may be startled at the result. I use Mahlkonig Vario gen2's, however an HG One or even my old (secondhand in the late '70's) Turkish hand grinder works as well (at its second coarsest setting...).
I did a fair bit of refraction testing a while back - 7g dialled in @ say 21% to 23% extraction (as measured) would be a much stronger, sweeter & balanced cup than your 15g @ 12% extraction* cut short to stop it running bitter...
12% extraction* - if you are lucky, I actually measured between 8% and 10% consistently in a similar dosage setup.
Anyway, something worth playing with if you feel the urge.
Barri, there may be no rules, however after VST and LM pooled a few million dollars together to develop their baskets, they may know what they are talking about regarding their use...
IMO, the "5 cent test" is probably responsible for destroying more good beans in a VST than any other factor. By traditional standards, a VST requires:-
I always use the 5c test or equivalent. Many that dose by volume use it as a reference and dial in from there. I really don't give a rats arse how much money's been used to develop these baskets. I have found a way to make a great ristrettos for my palate and my friends and relatives agree. Many say that I make the best coffee in my home town. Not once did you mention that I may like the coffees I make. Your refraction testing is irrelevant to me.
Last edited by barri; 13 February 2015, 07:54 PM.
Reason: spelling
So if LM are all about LM to the exclusion of all others and VST are all about VST to the exclusion of all others, all other shots, machines and baskets must surely then be rubbish.
It's about maximising bucks and it's sad to see science and spiel attempt to exclude the palate. You can extract 1000% and still have rubbish in the cup and there is plenty of it out there including that produced by many disciples of the two brands.
Way too much attempted brainwashing- too frequently from the paid marketers and the arrogant and egotistical.
Last edited by TC; 13 February 2015, 07:03 PM.
Reason: added more lest I get brainwashed as well
I often change my beans but I never Change my Baskets !! - If You know what I Mean.
[QUOTE=Talk_Coffee;551526]So if LM are all about LM to the exclusion of all others and VST are all about VST !!
Whilst I understand the intent of this post I can't necessarily agree.
I am often trying new beans, roasts and blends at home.
To me that's the major benefit of having a good home setup - different flavours / cups when I want.
And just like my brand of oil - I have found once I've found a great setup, then stick to it.
Less variables makes it easier to get a repeatable quality shot in the cup - and that suits my diet.
That's why when I found an excellent dble filter - The HQ 14g ( exceptional production quality IMHumbleO) that I dose to to suit my machine, And a Synesso Single - both be can dosed at or near the true and traditional Italian Espresso Recipe.
They are both very stable and therefore repeatable good quality shots are easy to quickly dial in.
I intentionally moved away from the Australian scene of updosing (14+ g for a single shot, 20+ g for a dble shot)
baskets as I am concerned about the overall amount of Acid intake in my diet from my daily
2-3 cups (Coffee can be highly ?? Acidic).
And I am yet to be fully convinced that the Australian coffee scene of dble / triple updosing to overcome other unnecessary shortcomings in the espresso shot / setup is of a healthy longterm position for my healthy diet.
I would however be very tempted to try one of those HQ single baskets - if as I suspect there as good as the 14g
Basket it should be a cracker.
It never ceases to surprise me how after reading through a 600 word ramble you realise your being spun a line.
I'm with you two.
Too many people read too much instead of practicing making coffee.
A few try to "buy better" extractions, eg, VST baskets, scales, etc.
Forget all the BS about the science of making great coffee, just practice as much as you can, yes it will cost you in beans, but it will be cheaper in the end.
TampIt wrote "(clearly the VSTs higher flow rate & the resulting issues are not in the Illy book as it was written before VSTs were developed)." Really you think VST baskets have a higher flow rate than other baskets?
Flow rate is determined by grind, dose and tamp pressure, not the holes in the basket!
As for the OP, just take in what Andy said and practice as much as you can, it will get there, it just might take a little time.
Hopefully still on topic:
Yesterday I had my Breville twin spout PF with Breville factory basket and along side it Brevilles naked PF and a 20gm VST.
I was making affogatos for the family and wanted single shots for my young daughters and a double for my adult Son.
Same grind and same prep tecnique albeit 18gm vs 21gm (eyeball not weighed) and behold both poured almost identically and wonderful results.
No grinder adjustment at all. I agree with Topshot.
Comment