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  • SpiceBean
    replied
    It might be the beans you are using. When coffee becomes old it tends to come out more watery. For example a cafe that I was working with decided to save money by buying cheap super market coffee to calibrate their grinder, only to find that it was near impossible to get a rich crema and syrupy extraction. We then used some fresh coffee with the same variables and the result was a nice syrupy extraction and thick crema. Not sure what coffee you are using so disregard if you have tried freshly roasted coffee.

    Mike

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  • Mrsr20
    replied
    Originally posted by Jiimiw View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm brand new to CS and home espresso!
    I know this is an old thread, but I've literally joined to say that Andy's Post #4 - while on reflection might be common sense

    has basically been my bible, and made my life complete

    so deserves a massive thank you!
    People tend to over complicate when it isn't needed, weather it be cars, coffee or whatever in life.

    The KISS principle is a great one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jiimiw
    replied
    Hi all,

    I'm brand new to CS and home espresso!
    I know this is an old thread, but I've literally joined to say that Andy's Post #4 - while on reflection might be common sense

    has basically been my bible, and made my life complete

    so deserves a massive thank you!

    Leave a comment:


  • topshot
    replied
    Originally posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    I currently use an 18g VST. Before that I used a double EPHQ. As I've said before (other threads) I find the VSTs to require a lot more faffing around to get an acceptable extraction out of, but I also find that putting in that effort yields slightly richer, sweeter shots than I am capable of getting with EPHQ baskets. Since I'm making 2 coffees most days, I can justify the extra time/effort (heck, I'm grinding my beans by hand - what's another 15-20sec?)
    That's the one thing we have making coffee at home, all the time we need.
    I will have to start using the VST for a while again, I found there was a learning curve for it, a different technique in a way.

    Originally posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    always enjoy seeing/tasting what other people are doing with their coffee (though I moved to the US, so won't see much of anyone unless they make it to an expo over here). The one thing that really got me was having a mate over while we messed around with some beans he'd brought back from Brisbane. For the most part, he was unimpressed with my best shots, but when we adjusted the dose/grind to a point where I was finding them undesirably bright/acidic, he was in heaven.

    That's why I laugh when people talk about the best anything in coffee; on the consumer side at least, there's no real consensus on one thing we all actually want, besides "something lighter than starbucks*.
    I'll be in Columbus, Georgia in May for a week, spending most of my time at Fort Benning.
    Its funny how everyone has different tastes when it comes to coffee, a friend of mine loves an espresso which is bitter, so I can do a really bad pour and he is in heaven.

    Originally posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Glade to see it's not just me... that's one thing I really miss about the EPHQs; pucks come out nice and clean in one piece.
    I thought I was doing something wrong with the VST, if both of us are getting the same result with the pucks, we must on track!
    The hard pucks were the reason I stopped using it, I thought I was getting it wrong all the time, I think I used it for about 3 months, but the hard pucks frustrated me!
    Now I know I was on the right track! It's a good reason to use it again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dragunov21
    replied
    Out of interest, what is your go-to basket at the moment?
    I currently use an 18g VST. Before that I used a double EPHQ. As I've said before (other threads) I find the VSTs to require a lot more faffing around to get an acceptable extraction out of, but I also find that putting in that effort yields slightly richer, sweeter shots than I am capable of getting with EPHQ baskets. Since I'm making 2 coffees most days, I can justify the extra time/effort (heck, I'm grinding my beans by hand - what's another 15-20sec?)

    I will not hold you to do anything, if we lived in the same city maybe we could get together and do some testing together for some fun!
    Plus I like to drink coffee other CoffeeSnobs make for me.
    I always enjoy seeing/tasting what other people are doing with their coffee (though I moved to the US, so won't see much of anyone unless they make it to an expo over here). The one thing that really got me was having a mate over while we messed around with some beans he'd brought back from Brisbane. For the most part, he was unimpressed with my best shots, but when we adjusted the dose/grind to a point where I was finding them undesirably bright/acidic, he was in heaven.

    That's why I laugh when people talk about the best anything in coffee; on the consumer side at least, there's no real consensus on one thing we all actually want, besides "something lighter than starbucks*.

    took several "Thumps" on my knock tube to get it out! (it came out in chunks)
    Glad to see it's not just me... that's one thing I really miss about the EPHQs; pucks come out nice and clean in one piece.

    Leave a comment:


  • topshot
    replied
    Originally posted by muppet_man67 View Post
    Regarding brew recipes, extraction yeilds etc. It's a more advanced area and can lead you down the wrong track if you are pulling recipes off the internet rather then making the coffee how the roaster intended, with that said, it think it can benefit beginners and help them learn faster. Once you start doing it, it quickly becomes fundamental.

    As a benchmark when trying a new coffee I always like to know how the roaster uses it and what their methods are. Knowing brewing recipes is the easiest way for a roaster to communicate to me what they are doing and how they think their coffee tastes best. If they can't tell you why not?

    If they don't know themselves how are they calibrating their roasting so they know they are producing a consistent product?

    The roasting companies pushing low dose/high yeild style espresso tend to be roasting fairly lightly/quickly, if done properly it can lead to beautifully complex deep, delicate flavours, it should still be balanced and not overly acidic. As espresso its a very long way from what a lot of people expect or think espresso "should" taste like. We had a stunning Ethiopian from small batch roasters last week, one of the the best we've had and we were blown away by it, it was every bit if not better than 90+ coffees we've had roasted in more traditional style.

    Feed back from customers was mixed, some loved it as much as us, others said "very drinkable but missing" referring to the reduced body/punch resulting from the high extraction ratio and compared to what that they normally expect from traditional roasting.

    In long blacks when diluted with additional water so that punch/body becomes less relevant, feedback was only positive.

    Lots of different coffee being made in different ways, lots of rules being thrown out the window, worrying about soggy pucks being one, blonding being another.

    There is no reason that we need to reach consensus on what we as individuals prefer.
    So true.

    Ethiopian beans as a single origin are at the top of my list.
    As you said not everyone liked the batch of Ethiopian you had (by the sounds of it, I wish I could have tried some), then everyone has different tastes and preferences.

    I have used and still own a VST 18gm basket, I can't say I noticed a difference in the pour rate. It still produced great coffee.
    The strange thing was the pucks were very dry, which is a good thing, but getting them out of the basket was unusual, they were as hard as a rock and took several "Thumps" on my knock tube to get it out! (it came out in chunks).

    This is not to say, I won't go back to it though.

    I just enjoy making great coffee and I would say my technique is simple.

    Then my wife loves using her Aeropress and thinks using a machine is a waste of time!
    I will admit, the coffee she produces from it is very good and she does not make it the same way all the time!
    That's another story.

    Leave a comment:


  • muppet_man67
    replied
    Shots using VST baskets run faster everything else being equal. I've seen it, it seemed like a straight forward observation at the time. I'm surprised its getting debated now when they have been around so long and there are so many people who have made the switch.

    Regarding brew recipes, extraction yeilds etc. It can lead you down the wrong track if you are pulling recipes off the internet rather then making the coffee how the roaster intended. With that said, it think it can benefit beginners and help them learn faster. Once you start doing it, it quickly becomes fundamental.

    As a benchmark when trying a new coffee I always like to know how the roaster uses it and what their methods are. Knowing brewing recipes is the easiest way for a roaster to communicate to me what they are doing and how they think their coffee tastes best. If they can't tell you why not?

    If they don't know their own brewing recipe, how are they calibrating their roasting so they know they are producing a consistent product?

    The roasting companies pushing low dose/high yeild style espresso tend to be roasting fairly lightly/quickly, if done properly it can lead to beautifully complex deep, delicate flavours. It should still be balanced and not overly acidic. As espresso its a very long way from what a lot of people expect or think espresso "should" taste like. We had a stunning Ethiopian from small batch roasters last week, one of the the best we've had and we were blown away by it, it was every bit if not better than 90+ coffees we've had roasted in a more traditional style.

    Feed back from customers was mixed, some loved it as much as us, others said "very drinkable but missing" referring to the reduced body/punch resulting from the high extraction ratio and compared to what that they normally expect from traditional roasting.

    In long blacks when diluted with additional water so that punch/body becomes less relevant, feedback was only positive.

    Lots of different coffee being made in different ways, lots of rules being thrown out the window, worrying about soggy pucks being one, blonding being another.

    There is no reason that we need to reach consensus on what we as individuals prefer.
    Last edited by muppet_man67; 23 February 2015, 09:26 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • topshot
    replied
    Originally posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Since you've already made the effort twice, it's probably on me to dig out my other baskets from the garage and do a test myself if I'm going to insist yours still wasn't adequate (so I will), but by using staled beans and only measuring the tail-end of the shot, the test still isn't useful IMO, because you're measuring the wateriest part of what is already a substantially less viscous shot.



    Yeah, we could call it CoffeeSnobs :P

    As for the rest of what you've said, I agree completely.
    I don't have many fresh beans left and I wont be roasting until next weekend!
    I called the beans stale, they were 3 weeks post roast.

    For some strange reason I tasted the shots (read drank them), they tasted fairly good, but 12 shots, or part of them gave me a huge coffee buzz !!!

    I did use the 2nd half of the pour, just to take any pre-infusion out of the equation.
    The idea of mine to start the stopwatch as the coffee reached the 1oz mark and stop it at the 2oz mark was just to give me a more accurate stopwatch reading.
    Whether that was a good idea or not who knows, I don't have a laboratory at home.

    Fresher beans will yield a slightly higher viscosity shot than the beans I used and it will slow the times down, it stands to reason.

    You will more than likely get very similar results, maybe not, it was a fun exercise though, if you do the excercise, just don't drink all the shots, or you wont sleep!!!!
    Even with the same grind weight and tamp, all the baskets gave a similar taste (might be due to the 3 week old beans).

    I'm looking forward to how you find it, either was we both are probably right and/or wrong!

    Out of interest, what is your go-to basket at the moment?

    I will not hold you to do anything, if we lived in the same city maybe we could get together and do some testing together for some fun!
    Plus I like to drink coffee other CoffeeSnobs make for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dragunov21
    replied
    Originally posted by topshot View Post
    -snip-
    Since you've already made the effort twice, it's probably on me to dig out my other baskets from the garage and do a test myself if I'm going to insist yours still wasn't adequate (so I will), but by using staled beans and only measuring the tail-end of the shot, the test still isn't useful IMO, because you're measuring the wateriest part of what is already a substantially less viscous shot.

    Maybe we need an area where people who have questions on making coffee can ask them without the thread becoming an argument.
    Yeah, we could call it CoffeeSnobs :P

    As for the rest of what you've said, I agree completely.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrJack
    replied
    Some interesting discussion in this thread.

    I'd be interested to hear if your results are the same with fresh beans. I suspect that they may not be.

    I've given some thought to modelling the dynamics of espresso pours (something I have some experience doing). Not in search of a magic formula for making the perfect espresso, but rather as a way to help understand some of the seemingly counter intuitive experiences people have making espresso. It is certainly not trivial.
    Last edited by MrJack; 23 February 2015, 12:03 AM.

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  • topshot
    replied
    Thanks, I did the experiment you suggested with a VST (18gm), Synesso basket, Precision Filter and the generic basket which came with the machine.

    I did not use a single basket as the design of a single makes the water flow along a longer path from the outside of the puck to the holes toward the centre which would give a longer pour (basic hydraulics and the dynamics of filter in use (air/oil/etc).
    Plus I don't think I can fit 18gm of coffee in it!

    I used my reloading scales (accurate to 0.002gm) to measure the ground coffee and used an Espro tamper for tamp consistency (I usually use a Pullman).

    I weighed the coffee into the baskets (18gm) and tamped without levelling, This is the most consistent way to dose and tamp I could think of for the experiment.

    I did not dial the coffee in (i used old beans, this way there was not much creama to give me a false reading (best I could do))

    The technique used was similar to last time, I used a 2oz measuring cup. Pulled the leaver, when the coffee reached the 1oz mark, I started the stopwatch, when the coffee reached the 2oz mark, I stopped the stopwatch.

    For the test I did 3 pours to get an average for each basket.

    All three baskets gave me a pour of 23.4 seconds +/- 0.2 seconds.

    What do we learn about this, really nothing!!!!!

    I have made great coffee out of all the baskets mentioned, I just prefer the Precision basket at the moment, it suits my technique at the moment.

    I couldn't care less about an internet debate, I have more important international sporting competitions to try to win.

    It's just most people go off half cocked without any facts or evidence, unfortunately, I tend to work on facts in all aspects of my life.

    We will both catch up one day for a coffee together, you never know!! (your place or mine?)

    My take of a forum is to share experiences, teach and learn to make great coffee. sometimes have a meet-up, a few of us did this a few years back to christen my new machine at the time.
    (I should try to organise a meet-up again, the last one was fun.)
    Not to slag off at each other because they have a different machine or think one product is better than another. (The VST debate has been going on for some years now).

    Andy has a great forum here, I have a read of all the new posts just about every day, but I have seen a change of attitude from the members here in the 8 years I have been a member.

    I may have been spurred on by a comment made from a member who has been member for over 10 years, who I have a lot of respect for and he has always been one the first to help someone with a question to help them make better coffee and I don't like someone questioning his "coffee wisdom".

    I would love to see the forum get back to being the positive forum I joined some years ago.

    Maybe we need an area where people who have questions on making coffee can ask them without the thread becoming an argument.

    Lets just make coffee the best way we know how and enjoy the experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    You're correct of course, but on the pressure gauges I have access to here at home, the pressure drop across the various baskets I own is immeasurable.

    One way to get a crude estimate, would be to fill up a basket with water and then allow it to drain out. There will be a point at which the water will cease to drain under its own weight and the depth of water remaining could be calculated to estimate the "equilibrium" pressure required to maintain that water level. Only problem is, at these very small values, the surface tension of the water will also enter in to it and given that hydraulics is not my speciality, you're on your own from here...

    Mal.

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  • Dragunov21
    replied
    Originally posted by Dimal View Post
    This is true mate, but not in the way you think....
    Water flow (analogous to electron flow in a conductor) is always determined by the total resistance in the hydraulic circuit. In the case of the screen size and pattern in a Filter Basket with a properly prepared coffee cake therein, these must be considered as a Series Resistance to flow.

    By far the most significant resistance in this system, is caused by the coffee cake, not the Filter Basket screen and as a percentage of the total resistance to flow, is minuscule. Variations in the character of the prepared coffee cake will always hide any influence that the Filter Basket screen may have...

    Mal.
    I get that, believe me I do, and I understand that (much like the conductor compared to the load) the basket will provide much less resistance than the coffee (but I don't know what the actual proportions are; 1:5? 1:10? 1:100000?).

    That said, I've found that getting the "right" numbers (30g/30sec, which I use as a ballpark figure to get to before I dial in based on taste) with a VST 18g requires a finer grind than 18g in my EPHQ. I'm also not the only one to have found VSTs to require more finicky preparation to get an acceptable result (even Chris has noted that difference), and I've hypothesised that this might be due to the coffee puck making up a significantly larger proportion of the total resistance, making puck integrity more critical.

    Of course, that's just a shot in the dark, but I'd ask the question, if not the holes, why the consistently noted difference between VSTs and other baskets (for better or worse)?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Originally posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    If you think that the holes in your basket don't substantially affect flow, try putting a regular grind/dose in a pressurised basket and tell me what you find.
    This is true mate, but not in the way you think....
    Water flow (analogous to electron flow in a conductor) is always determined by the total resistance in the hydraulic circuit. In the case of the screen size and pattern in a Filter Basket with a properly prepared coffee cake therein, these must be considered as a Series Resistance to flow.

    By far the most significant resistance in this system, is caused by the coffee cake, not the Filter Basket screen and as a percentage of the total resistance to flow, is minuscule. Variations in the character of the prepared coffee cake will always hide any influence that the Filter Basket screen may have...

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dragunov21
    replied
    Try again with ground coffee in the basket; same dose, same grind, same tamp. If you're concerned about wasting coffee to win an internet debate, put the max you can reasonably fit in the single in both the single and any double and that should provide sufficient demonstration.

    As I said, viscosity is part of the equation, and using water and a flow resistance that isn't sufficient to produce 9 bar of back-pressure (or whatever your pressure reg. valve is calibrated to) with the capacity of your pump isn't necessarily going to give you any meaningful results here.

    FWIW, the only reason I care is because there are people who are, IMO, far too willing to tear strips off certain members, and the reasons keep changing, but no matter what your thoughts on getting technical/theorising about espresso extraction, if you're going to call someone out as wrong in addition to long-winded and far too concerned with minutiae, then you'd better be right, (once again, IMO).

    Leave a comment:

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