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  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by deegee View Post
    As to the original question my vote is for over-extraction and/or overheating.

    Cheers, Deegee.
    Hi Deegee, Journeyman et al.

    I agree with most of the above posts, and all the culprits listed. All of those things do create bitterness, however my "hands down" vote for no 1: oxidation of beans left in the dosers whilst awaiting the next shot.

    Some very famous brands retain so much grounds in their dosers that they need at least two "clacks" to clear it, whilst other grinders never manage to do so without a top to tail clean.

    Ground coffee starts to go bitter in less than 15 minutes in a warmish grinder. A lot of cafes are also humid, so it happens even earlier.

    FWIW, that is why I only ever drag out my commercial gear if I am making more than 5 "on the trot". Less than that, the Mahlkoenig Vario (not the W) is just possibly the best single to 5 on the planet as it leaves almost nothing in the grinder mechanism and gives a really good even grind (actually far better than most other grinders). If I were to contemplate going back into the trade (shudder) I would buy a few of them and use one for each type of coffee, or perhaps their newer commercial grade one if it has similar grind retention. Oxidation was always my no 1 enemy on the job.

    To return to the original post - test it by running a bitter shot, then cleaning it thoroughly and try it again immediately.

    May your coffee be great on your worst day.

    TampIt
    Last edited by TampIt; 6 September 2013, 03:29 AM.

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  • Journeyman
    replied
    ^^ Very well put. I appreciate Greg's (& others) view of it - let's face it, without such people I wouldn't have had a job for the past 25 years. (and that is NOT intended to be insulting in any way)

    The Romantics of Pirsig's story/Chautauqua often far surpass what the Classics can achieve by concentrating on the end product... but they go to Classics to get things fixed when they break.

    Pirsig tells of riding across the States with a mate, him on his Harley and his mate on a BMW. When they started up into the mountains, both bikes began to play up. Pirsig spends time checking and tinkering and eventually realises what is wrong and fixes it easily. The friend goes into a garage in a small town and spends good money getting someone (another classic ) to fix his bike. Once they came down out of the mountains, Pirsig could fix his bike again; the friend would need another mechanic.

    What was wrong? Simple matter of timing and tuning to account for higher altitude. (less atmospheric pressure)

    *grins* I was on a course (I can be anything I want if only I knew what it is) many years back. Most such courses begin by getting you to agree to divide humanity into 2 types of people and so are of limited use in real life. They can however highlight aspects of Self (that normally AREN'T the intended goal of the course) and so can be useful. In this one the dichotomy is people are 'Scanners' or 'Deep Divers' - scanners float across the top of many subjects, briefly dipping toes into each, while Deep Divers plunge into one or two subjects and learn them intimately.

    I turned out to be a Deep Scanner - instructor's choice of words. She nearly derailed the class trying to show how I had to be one or the other.

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  • deegee
    replied
    Greg, I have no doubt that in your field of expertise you are correct in what you have said .............

    But I think Journeyman, Dragunov and I ( & many others on C.S.) have something in common which you are not taking into consideration here.

    We are "techno-tinkers". We enjoy fixing things that are not working as they should, and then modifying them so that they work even better than the original if that is what we need.( or sometimes just because we can )
    Fixing electrical or mechanical problems usually involves understanding why there is a problem, and what is causing it, in order to fix it.

    Modifying any thing to work better needs a good grasp of why it is not working as well as you think it could, and why it is better when you replace "this" with "that", and tweak something else.
    This is why we don't just want to know how fix something. We have this need to know why it needed fixing, and exactly how and why our "fix" worked to correct it.

    With Journeyman this obviously carries over to the feeding and operation of the machines as well as the electro-mechanical processes that they perform.

    So I fully understand where he is coming from. I also like the "why do other drivers hit trees " and the "skidpan" analogies too - must go with the territory.

    As to the original question my vote is for over-extraction and/or overheating.

    Cheers, Deegee.

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  • Journeyman
    replied
    I am reminded of John Pirsig's 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.' We seem to be seeing the Romantic/Classic division of how to view the world in this thread. Nothing wrong with either, just different ways to view things.

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  • GregWormald
    replied
    As a coffee snob of some 45 years, and a psychotherapist for more than 40, I can safely say that working out how to do stuff wrong is usually a complete waste of time and energy. And it puts entirely the wrong ideas in your head.

    As a therapy trainer, one of my first tasks is to beat the goal of finding out *why* the client is doing something that doesn't work, out of the student's head. They need to learn how to focus on getting positive results. This is something that is often non-intuitive.

    Work out how to do things with excellence and finesse will give you all the skills you need to produce high quality results. And it sounds as though you are already mostly there.

    Greg

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  • Journeyman
    replied
    *grins* Oh, I know, I know... (in my head I am hearing Sybil Faulty ) Hopefully in such a case, it would be something under my control and the difference in coffee would provide customer-driven change.

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  • Dragunov21
    replied
    Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
    To put it another way... you can purposely drive your car into a tree to see what that may be like but it will not make you a better driver. If you can already drive without hitting any trees there really ain't no advantage in hitting one on purpose is there?
    Alternatively, you could compare it to heading out to a skidpan and faffing about so you know what loss of traction feels like so that you can cope with (and avoid) loss of traction in a range of cars... There's no major loss in making bad coffee; beans aren't expensive and seeing what happens when you push a given variable too far is useful, I think.

    As an aside, if you do get work at a place and their coffee isn't great and you think it's down to bad beans or machine settings... let's just say that you may want to take it slow/tactfully, because getting a job then immediately telling everyone how things are done is not a recipe for success.

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  • Journeyman
    replied
    You should have a coffee; it's good for when your head hurts. I can get my car from A to B without hitting trees, but if someone who did the same driver training as me keeps hitting trees, I'd want to know why.

    To put it another way, I could have just bought a new/different grinder but instead I wanted to know why it was so inconsistent and being who I am I persisted until I found out and now I have a decent grinder that cost me nothing. I like to know the WHY's of things I guess...

    Thanks for the list of things.

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  • Vinitasse
    replied
    There are multiple ways to make bad, bitter coffee (including but not limited to: using overly dark or even burnt coffee, brewing too hot, over extracting, using stale, oxidized coffee, etc...) but there is only one way to get it right... and if you're already there you don't need to know anything else.

    To put it another way... you can purposely drive your car into a tree to see what that may be like but it will not make you a better driver. If you can already drive without hitting any trees there really ain't no advantage in hitting one on purpose is there?

    So stop it already... you make my head hurt

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  • Journeyman
    replied
    *grins* I understand your general puzzlement. But it's to do with how I'm built - some of you might have seen my grinder thread a while back... I don't like to not have explanations. To me, knowing what makes those coffees like they are is valuable knowledge - if all I ever do is concentrate on making my coffee on my home machine as good as I can, what happens if I start work as a barista and don't know what to do to fix the bitterness issue? My puzzle is this... so many baristas/coffee makers get it wrong in the bitterness area that I figure it must be something basic. e.g. the pub I worked at, I wasn't allowed to change the grind (nor was anyone else) but I never saw any of them doing the timed shots to work out how much tamping was needed to try to compensate for changes in the beans. Maybe most aren't aware of the volatility of grinding at different humidity/temps etc?

    I'm kind of presuming it is the grinding process, as cafés have widely varied bean supplies and they use professional machines - and you can usually smell a machine set too hot the moment you walk in the door.

    Would old beans cause it or would they tend more to losing flavour? Many cafés do brief bursts of trade and then their beans sit in the grinder until the next surge in drinkers. I have tried supermarket beans ( and copped some comments for it here) and was surprised that what I got from them tasted better than probably half the cafés out there. Buying good beans lifted that to probably 70% and getting the recent phoenix beans jumped it again.

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  • Dragunov21
    replied
    Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
    I've tried most of the above (short of changing my bean choice) ...
    And that's probably got a lot to do with it. Even on stupidly long pours I find it hard to get bitterness from light beans, but dark roasts require a little more finesse in that regard.

    Try some supermarket dark/espresso roasts or buy some beans from a cafe that gives you a bitter drink, if you really wasn't too experience it.

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  • Pavoniboy
    replied
    My thoughts are that because they are making a 'long' drink they are maybe running the shot too long and thus getting bitterness from overextraction?.

    I agree with Vinitasse, just focus on making killer long macs to beat those bitter ones.

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  • Vinitasse
    replied
    Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
    "...almost without exception there is a strong bitterness that hits the sides and roof of the mouth.

    I've been trying to reproduce that at home so I can know what causes it and be able to make smooth and strong short coffees without the bitter taste."
    Let me get this straight... you're actually trying hard to learn how to make bad coffee at home and are struggling with it thus far. Here's a clue... instead of focusing on learning bad coffee so that you can avoid it in the future, why not simply embrace the fact that you're finding this quest difficult and do what everyone else is doing, and concentrate on making good or even great coffee.

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  • richard_m_h
    replied
    maybe add some robusta to your blend?

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  • Journeyman
    replied
    I've tried most of the above (short of changing my bean choice) and the closest I can get is just a hint of the bitterness I get in most cafés. I think I will have to go watch them do it and time the shots. I find it difficult to believe they would ALL be too hot on their shots, so maybe it is the tamping and too fine a grind...

    For the milk, I like a little sweetness and at home I use Natvia, about half a teaspoon in the milk before I heat it. But I can drink it without the sweetness (as in I forgot a few times) and I still don't get that bitter flavour.

    Thanks for the replies...

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