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extraction time faster than cafe machineon same grind

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  • extraction time faster than cafe machineon same grind

    I went to the cafe today and spoke to one of the baristas, he timed his extraction which was 23 seconds and he gave me some grinded coffee to take home. When I got home I calibrated my machine so it pours 60mls from 60mls(not grams dont have scales yet) of coffee. I have the same beans and I grinded it to the same courseness, I spent about 40mins getting it as close as possible with my burr grinder. I put in 60mls of coffee, tamped 30lbs (my tamper has a spring) and the problem is I got an extraction time of 11 seconds, the only real variable apart from machine, minor courseness and volume differences is that my coffee was not as fresh, can this really explain being only half the extraction time?? My machine is a new LM GS/3 running at 9 bar.


    The coffee itself is very dark, crema color is the same as at the cafe but obviously not as much crema, coffee blonded at around 9 seconds I would say due to the beans not being as fresh. Also, temp is 94c.

  • #2
    When you say you put in 60mls of coffee, what do you mean?

    When you say you calibrated your machine, what do you mean? Your variables should be grind size, dose weight and tamp pressure. Your machine should have nothing to do with it (the pressure should be ~9bar and shouldn't be fiddled with on a regular basis)

    When you say you ground it to the same coarseness as the coffee grounds you were given, you've gotta understand that you'll never be able to produce the same grind size (or even close enough) by sight or feel. I suspect that's where your problem lies. Get your tamp consistent (already done if you have a calibrated tamper and you're tamping level), then get your dose consistent (relatively easy to weigh or eyeball), then adjust your grind size to get your extraction time within acceptable range.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Dragunov21 View Post
      When you say you ground it to the same coarseness as the coffee grounds you were given, you've gotta understand that you'll never be able to produce the same grind size (or even close enough) by sight or feel. I suspect that's where your problem lies.
      The number of variables going on here is large. Have to agree with Dragunov21 here. Don't know what grinder you're using but if you're using a flat burr and your barista is using a conical then you'll get dramatically different results with what looks macroscopically to be the same size grind. This is because the conical burr will produce a much higher proportion of fines (small coffee grounds) that will significantly impede brew flow. This may well be the main explanatory factor for what you are observing, although, once again, there's so much going on here that no one else can isolate the issue with the information provided.

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      • #4
        Probably good idea to go for a class or get someone to show you how to use your machine.

        Or just watch a few youtube videos on how to set your grind and continue to experiment

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        • #5
          60mls of coffee is 4 tablespoons or what would be the same volume as 60mls of water.

          I am using a mazzer mini.

          I will buy digital scales tomorrow and measure the coffee I was given, the barista told me he uses 9 grams for a single and 18 grams for a double, which I had forgot about. I really can't believe I'm getting such fast extraction times. If I want to emulate their coffee should I pre infuse 10 seconds rather than grind finer? I wanna try that just to see how the coffee will be, Noobventuring.
          Sorry if what I'm saying or doing sounds stupid.

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          • #6
            That (60ml of grinds) seems like quite a lot for a double, though I could be wrong.

            I'd suggest you don't immediately try to emulate their coffee but instead get yourself in the ballpark then learn to tweak the coffee to your tastes. Learn to walk before you try to run.

            What is your machine? If it does pre-infusion natively, great (though I'd suggest starting off without if only to simplify things), but whatever you do, pick one way and keep it consistent until you've worked it out and are getting acceptable shots. What did you adjust on it to get your preground pulling at 60ml/25sec? It's important to know you didn't mess with something that might prevent you from getting good shots (like brew pressure).

            Your grinder will be a super jolly OR a mini; they're two different models (not that that really matters).

            Long story short, if you want to experiment, that's cool. If you want to get your fundamental skills down so that you can produce good coffee and then experiment in a way that allows you to make intentional tweaks to the flavours of the coffee you're producing, there is a more efficient way of doing it than what it wounds like you're trying to do.

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            • #7
              Where are you located? Maybe a local CS'er can help out?

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              • #8
                It's a mini, the manual confused me cause it's for both.
                My machine is a gs3 and it does pre infusion natively. I could get it to do 25 seconds by finely tweaking the grind but then it would be like every other cafe that uses these beans, the place I go to does something different, the coffee tastes like unsweetened dark chocolate and it has a very strong non jittery kick that will keep you awake.

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                • #9
                  Well if your extraction is too quick then it won't have that thick chocolaty taste.

                  Have you tried to grind finer?

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                  • #10
                    I will see tomorrow now that I've calibrated the amount of water and will know how much coffee to put in with scales, since I've got this machine I haven't got much sleep and I've had caffeine headaches, I need to learn to spit the coffee back out.

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                    • #11
                      Oh snap; that's a lot of gear. Very nice

                      If the beans, and extraction time are the same, the difference could be down to:
                      - Dosage (which you can imitate when you have scales)
                      - Tamp/Grind (ie they might use a finer grind and softer tamp or coarser grind and harder tamp)
                      - The grinder used (different grind distributions will significantly affect the taste, as kwantfm said)
                      - The machines themselves (different preinfusion methods/times might have a significant effect)
                      - Brew pressure or pressure profiling, if they do that.
                      - Basket (different baskets can have an effect on flavour, IME)
                      - The little things that baristas do differently when dosing/distributing that you can't really quantify. Like it or not it's a skill and not one you can pick up just by having the right gear and the measurable parameters available to you. Practise really does make perfect, here.

                      *EDIT* Ah, I see; you calibrated the volumetric delivery to give 60ml of espresso? That could be part of the issue. I'm not sure, but I suspect volumetric delivery should be calibrated to give a certain quantity (40mls?) of water, not espresso. My reasoning is that for a given quantity of water, the amount of espresso produced will depend on the extraction ratio and the quantity of crema. If you're using preground beans and calibrating to 60ml of espresso (which would be a standard double with fresh, just-ground beans producing a greater amount of crema) then it's possible you've calibrated the machine to deliver more water than desirable.

                      Might I suggest controlling the pour manually and stopping the shots shorter?

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                      • #12
                        If I grind finer I can get 25seconds but that isnt gonna help me get my coffee like at the cafe, that is what I am aiming for, I have made a coffee on the machine better than a lot of cafes that have the bean but to get it like the cafe I go to is another challenge and thats what I am aiming at, I was given the grinded coffee they use, the barista asked me what pressure my machine runs at and I told him 9bar and he didnt mention them using a different pressure so by using deductive reasoning based on everything in this thread it has to be the freshness of the coffee which is causing the fast extraction.

                        Tomorrow I will get scales, weigh up 9 grams of the coffee I was given, tamp 30lbs and run 30mls through it.

                        Then I will open a new bag grind it and do the same. I am guessing the coffee I was given being now stale will extract in 10 seconds and the new coffee will extract in 18-25

                        Originally posted by okitoki View Post
                        Where are you located? Maybe a local CS'er can help out?
                        I am in Sydney but I wouldnt feel right having someone help me in person without atleast me doing a proper Barista course 1st.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MaFi0s0 View Post
                          If I grind finer I can get 25seconds but that isnt gonna help me get my coffee like at the cafe, that is what I am aiming for, I have made a coffee on the machine better than a lot of cafes that have the bean but to get it like the cafe I go to is another challenge and thats what I am aiming at, I was given the grinded coffee they use, the barista asked me what pressure my machine runs at and I told him 9bar and he didnt mention them using a different pressure so by using deductive reasoning based on everything in this thread it has to be the freshness of the coffee which is causing the fast extraction.

                          Then I will open a new bag grind it and do the same. I am guessing the coffee I was given being now stale will extract in 10 seconds and the new coffee will extract in 18-25
                          A dodgy tamp can easily result in a 15sec gusher or a 35+ second choke. Unless you have the you element sorted, there's no point in going to the nth degree trying to figure out their variables in an attempt to replicate it.

                          Originally posted by MaFi0s0 View Post
                          deductive reasoning
                          Is all well and good, but you've set a target for yourself and are trying to hit it with a blindfold on. It's not the freshness of your coffee if you're grinding it fresh, and from experience it very likely is the fact (I'm assuming you're new to this; correct me if I'm wrong) that you just don't have the skill or experience to do what you're trying to do, yet.

                          Originally posted by MaFi0s0 View Post
                          I am in Sydney but I wouldnt feel right having someone help me in person without at least me doing a proper Barista course 1st.
                          I think you'd find a few people who wouldn't mind, but yes, that would be a great idea (a course).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MaFi0s0 View Post
                            the place I go to does something different, the coffee tastes like unsweetened dark chocolate and it has a very strong non jittery kick that will keep you awake.
                            What is the cafe you go to? What machine is on the counter?

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                            • #15
                              I've just realised you're the guy from that other thread.

                              What did the coffee taste like when the distributor made one for you? Chances are he knows how top make a coffee, so that should be your target, initially.

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