Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Coffee tastes bitter

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Darkfalz
    replied
    Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
    @Darkfalz - here is the puzzle. Look at your double spout PF. Think about how the coffee goes into the bottom of the PF through the filter. Now ask yourself, how is it possible that one side of the double spout could possibly get a preferential version of the pour.
    I take back this statement. When I sample the straight espresso, I take the tiniest sip from the top of the shot. I don't stir it first like I've seen in the barista championships. This is most likely the reason I think the two taste different - I am getting different parts of of the shot in each sip.

    Leave a comment:


  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by okitoki View Post
    some people are just conditioned to very bitter coffee due to instant/POD coffees they been drinking all these time...
    an example was when one of my missus's friend came over for a visit, and asked for a coffee... my Giotto only had around 10min of warm up time, and is not ready... but since he insisted, and I didnt really like the guy anyway, so I pulled a double shot for him... and sure enough, the shot was not the normal syrupy run, was slightly watery, and had very light coloured crema... normally a sink shot... and funny enough, the guy loved it.... he said it was the best espresso he ever had so far...




    ... or maybe he was just too polite to say my espresso tasted like crap
    Hi okitoki

    The whole pod / capsule thing: My nearly-local roaster (50km north) is well on the way to taming pods. I suspect he will have it all nailed by Xmas (taken him about a year so far). You take your Nespresso / whatever pod machine in & he sets up the exact grind /dose /load & seal pods for that machine. Then he just hammers them out. On a good day, he is perilously close to a great espresso (surprised the hell out of me with the quality). I would be a little circumspect in dismissing that technology so casually. He is still awaiting the automatic machine he ordered, as the time he is spending doing pods is becoming prohibitive. Of course, it also means you can chose any of his daily roasts for the pods (a range of about 15 medium SO's plus a few assorted blends / darks & one light). If you are referring to the stale, mostly over roasted pap that is commonly on the market, yes they are truly awful. You have probably noticed I didn't mention instant.

    normally a sink shot: Cracked me up. Of course you really cared which alternative applied, didn't you?

    Cheers, you made my day


    TampIt

    Leave a comment:


  • okitoki
    replied
    some people are just conditioned to very bitter coffee due to instant/POD coffees they been drinking all these time...
    an example was when one of my missus's friend came over for a visit, and asked for a coffee... my Giotto only had around 10min of warm up time, and is not ready... but since he insisted, and I didnt really like the guy anyway, so I pulled a double shot for him... and sure enough, the shot was not the normal syrupy run, was slightly watery, and had very light coloured crema... normally a sink shot... and funny enough, the guy loved it.... he said it was the best espresso he ever had so far...




    ... or maybe he was just too polite to say my espresso tasted like crap

    Leave a comment:


  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by Bazooka View Post
    Personally, straight espresso is an acquired taste for me, my early plunge into espresso wilderness was filled with memory of bitter tastes which overpowered any other tasting notes that i suspect were always there, but unrecognised by my (still) unrefined palette. I think general bitter taste always features in any espresso beverages, overtime i just get more appreciation of its other nuances, my tasting notes at the moment is limited to yum and yuck but I am enjoying the ride
    Exactly what my niece said until she had one done properly. It changed to "Hey, it is not bitter at all" (shocked look) then to "Can I have another one, please?". Current status: walks in door, demands coffee (but ever so sweetly), often espresso.
    Short version: if it is bitter then something is wrong somewhere in the chain.

    TampIt

    Leave a comment:


  • Bazooka
    replied
    Personally, straight espresso is an acquired taste for me, my early plunge into espresso wilderness was filled with memory of bitter tastes which overpowered any other tasting notes that i suspect were always there, but unrecognised by my (still) unrefined palette. I think general bitter taste always features in any espresso beverages, overtime i just get more appreciation of its other nuances, my tasting notes at the moment is limited to yum and yuck but I am enjoying the ride

    Leave a comment:


  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
    The 480 tends to spray my preferred beans around a bit so I leave the rubber on but I am thinking of removing the PF holder.

    Even so, on both of them, I tap sideways to even out the mound; my thinking is tamping on a mound will compress the centre much more than the sides. So I am unlikely to not tap by finger. I'm trying the no-bang (using 'bang' to differentiate from my tapping) PF method mainly because, as TampIt says, less movements = more efficient - for similar reason I have also moved towards doing only 3 steps in the progressive tamping. I haven't noticed any difference in reducing it from 4 steps and I did side-by-side shots to test it. (well one shot then another... )

    I will say this though (i.e. getting back OT) with the changes made to my technique across the past few months, as well as getting a naked PF and VST baskets, my coffee is much better than it was and I have been unable to get a coffee that pours anywhere near normal and has the bitter taste of a macchiato from most cafés - I actually asked on CS about it but so far the suggestions I have tried tend to give shitty pours - if it pours OK it tastes good - and the café versions pour OK but have that taste.

    Maybe I should leave some beans out in the open for a couple of weeks?
    Hi again Journeyman

    480: Mine does not use the extra silicone / rubber thingy, it does use the 58mm p/f holder. It does not throw much (I could leave the bench uncleaned for 4 or 5 shots and not have to worry about domestics), however I have now noticed that I hold the p/f quite "high" on the auto switch. Also, as discussed, I clean it out with my compressor every 250 to 500 grams so the mechanism does not build up crud.

    4 to 3 steps: it actually does make a very subtle difference to the pour, which is easy to adjust via grind / dosing anyway. FWIW, the only time I do the "whole progressive thing" is when I am dialling in a new roast or machine. I then know exactly what I am trying to alter until I get at very close, then I do fine tuning with whatever method I have chosen. When learning, the full version helps consistency especially whilst you learn how to tamp level with an even pressure... Knowing what and when to compromise plus exactly the effect it has is, IMHO, always a good thing.

    Prepare yourself for a rant, or skip 2) until 6). "bitter taste of a macchiato from most cafés":-
    1) I have mentioned grind retention several times. Ground beans oxidise in 15 minutes at normal temp & humidity (whatever that means). Even if everything else is perfect, less than 2g of oxidised grinds destroys a (say) 15g double by going bitter and often tasting stale to boot. Most commercial grinders retain 2 to 5g, whilst certain (well regarded) doser models easily double that. They really do waste a lot of coffee if you run it long enough to get rid of the oxidised stuff (most places don't). I still regard it as the elephant in the room for baristas, given it is generally ignored.

    2) The same grinders also usually use the weight of the beans to feed into the grinder (as does your 480 /450 and almost every other domestic burr grinder). Those that clean everything out and measure the exact quantity of beans (whether by weight or volume) into the hopper lose out due to the feeder mechanism messing up the particle size consistency as the weight of beans drops. The extra airflow would be relevant if the beans are preloaded, however that is rarely seen. Those that keep the hopper full win that battle, but lose out because beans hate light, heat, moisture / humidity and airflow and they have increased the potential exposure to all of them. FWIW, I have a "medical grade neoprene / rubber" plus metal weight in my 480 which fits exactly near the bottom of the hopper, and is tapered to match the hopper's curve. Until the beans get to the "sharp curve" it is always over 250g loading into the mechanism. First 480 mod I did in 2010. Apart from massively reducing the airflow, it also stops the beans from bouncing around as a free bonus.

    3) Some grinders overheat the beans as they grind, whilst the big motors on other ones transfer significant heat into the beans via the grinder housing after a few shots. The housing is often a conducting metal which really enables the process... And so many CS'rs slam plastic housings?

    4) The cafe environment often has the grinder too close to the espresso machine or other hot spots, which also helps to kill the beans off.

    5) As mentioned above, humidity is a killer as well. One of my other pet snafu's is to watch clouds of steam hit just below or on the hopper. I love it when the condensation runs down the side of the hopper into (somewhere)... Never helps, probably hurts. Fastest way I know to render a Robur's grind useless until the next major clean (seen it at two different Melbourne cafes that really should have known better).

    6) If you let grounds go into the grinder mechanism (normal use does a little of that), it throws the particle consistency out. The number of times I am asked to dial in a troublesome machine when their grinder is actually unable to work properly until a top to tail cleanout is performed... I believe it was you that said something about “as clean as a hobo in a tip” or suchlike? I have lived it too often. Not to pick on a Robur (I kinda like them) but their users seem to regard them as indestructible. That may be true, however if you want decent coffee out of them surely they deserve a little attention? I have actually taken them to a nearby servo to blow out the worst of the gunk before hitting them with one of those “almost useless” compressed air spray cans to remove the extra moisture a servo air gun often provides free of charge.

    7) Most catering blends are rubbish.

    ... are you still wondering why their macc's are bitter?

    Cheers

    TampIt

    Leave a comment:


  • Journeyman
    replied
    Originally posted by Darkfalz View Post
    My pre-tamp is just for distribution, it applies no pressure, just the weight of the tamp.
    Ah... that's the reason I tap the side of the PF with my fingers. It's not so bad with my EM0450 grinder as that hasn't got the PF holder or the rubber spout so I have more scope to move the handle around as I grind and so get reasonable distribution. But the 450 is set for the wife's decaf. The 480 tends to spray my preferred beans around a bit so I leave the rubber on but I am thinking of removing the PF holder.

    Even so, on both of them, I tap sideways to even out the mound; my thinking is tamping on a mound will compress the centre much more than the sides. So I am unlikely to not tap by finger. I'm trying the no-bang (using 'bang' to differentiate from my tapping) PF method mainly because, as TampIt says, less movements = more efficient - for similar reason I have also moved towards doing only 3 steps in the progressive tamping. I haven't noticed any difference in reducing it from 4 steps and I did side-by-side shots to test it. (well one shot then another... )

    I will say this though (i.e. getting back OT) with the changes made to my technique across the past few months, as well as getting a naked PF and VST baskets, my coffee is much better than it was and I have been unable to get a coffee that pours anywhere near normal and has the bitter taste of a macchiato from most cafés - I actually asked on CS about it but so far the suggestions I have tried tend to give shitty pours - if it pours OK it tastes good - and the café versions pour OK but have that taste.

    Maybe I should leave some beans out in the open for a couple of weeks?

    Leave a comment:


  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
    I'll try not tapping and see if it improves the flow. It's a light tap I use anyway as I noticed a heavy tap disrupted my nice lightly-tamped puck. But the tap I was doing was not after my final tamp, it was to settle the newly ground pile into the filter. Then I tamp it.

    I've seen (but never done) some coffee makers bang their PF solidly on the bench - maybe they don't have my miserliness about watching my hard earned coffee grounds spray across the bench.

    The finger tap I mention is just a gentle tapping on the side to get the dome to even out after grinding, then a light tap on the mat and tamp it.

    Something I've wondered about; should I polish after each tamp? I've been tending not to because I thought it might create planar surfaces deep in the puck rather than allowing a smooth transition between tamped amounts. I learned the no-pressure-polish thing very early on when I noticed the difficulty I was having keeping my coffee level if I spun the tamper while under pressure. It was much easier to tamp level then spin the tamp than try to keep a rotating tamper level.

    Interesting read on tamping. Mind you, his one about the God Shot was pretty informative - must go make a coffee...
    Hi Journeyman

    Even a fairly light tap can sometimes result in uneven streaming. Although it is not really channelling, it is still using extra effort to create an unwanted problem. On seriously busy days, every movement counts...

    When you go naked, it is surprising to see the sheer volume of the horde of gremlins coming out of the woodpile. Ditto VST's. I literally had to go back to first principles again to get rid of ingrained errors that crept in over the years. I still marvel at the difference it made on my La Pav. Always a good ego trimmer to do something on a machine that you think you have tamed over a decade ago and be astounded!

    Polishing: I have even seen strong disagreement on CS posts about this. I believe one key issue is as you say "It was much easier to tamp level then spin the tamp than try to keep a rotating tamper level". My tentative conclusion: When using progressive tamping if you polish a puck off properly it is always a slightly different pour than no polishing. I suspect it makes a +ve change to the taste, however we all know 'bout the power of delusions*. Consistency rules supreme: so either polish it properly using no pressure "in the spin", or do not bother to polish at all and adjust the grind or dose slightly instead. I remain convinced that "tearing the top of the puck" is always bad news (it channels), and that is as far as I will commit.

    *FYI, I read somewhere (buried in an old mag I kept for other reasons) that an Italian barista at one of the championship comps did not tamp at all. Although he did not win, it also made me go back and try the "no tamping technique" about a year ago. Unsurprisingly it needed a complete revision of grinding & dosing to get a good result. At the end of the day I gave it up more due to (my?) lack of consistency than giving the method the thumbs down. Using a naked it tended to stream and spray. When it decided to behave, it gave a truly excellent cuppa. I often wonder if it meant that it would work if you were willing to count the individual granules, pray to the correct deity or whatever... for him to compete at that level it must have been possible somehow.

    God shot: When a guy with enough talent gets his hands on a decent grinder** and a 6910, it is amazing what con be achieved.

    ** I heard several times it was an EM480. Given my experience with them, when correctly set up they are "up there" in my view. That is why I bought my 480/6910 for home originally - one stale grind retention too many and a warmup taking too many frustrating eons from my commercial "home" setup when all I wanted was a single decent coffee in the same calendar year. Oh, and all that without the need to spend 30 minutes and 4 cups in an arcane Byzantine ritual first... I literally took a punt and have not ever regretted the purchase for home use.

    Have fun

    TampIt

    Leave a comment:


  • Darkfalz
    replied
    Originally posted by Journeyman View Post
    Why tap after a tamp? What result do you think it has?
    My pre-tamp is just for distribution, it applies no pressure, just the weight of the tamp.

    Leave a comment:


  • mikev
    replied
    Hi toomanyhobbies

    What is the brew pressure reading on your machine when your shot starts flowing? If you have a gauge

    Leave a comment:


  • alphaoscar
    replied
    Tapping after the tamp is definitely not helpful. Ive cringed a few too many times at various cafes as baristas tamp and either tap or bang the side of their porta for god knows why.
    Before the tamp is ok
    I am a huge fan of a naked portafilter- it sheds light on your tamping technique (not level, angles etc)
    Tamping consistency is something thats comes with practice. Ive been taught to bend the elbow and have my upper arm at 90 degrees. I can then successfully push in a downward motion to tamp as level as i can. I slight polish without pressure then off the pull the shot.

    I havent really read through previous posts so i might just be repeating others. Anyways keep practicing, reading and learning! Theres always more to learn.

    A video on your tamping technique and dosing may help us identify any necessary changes?

    Leave a comment:


  • Journeyman
    replied
    Why tap after a tamp? What result do you think it has?

    Leave a comment:


  • Darkfalz
    replied
    I tap lightly after the levelling pre-tamp, but not the final tamp.

    The most important thing about polishing, imo, is that turning the tamper before you lift it stops any coffee sticking to the underside of the tamper, leaving craters in your puck.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    I've tapped my Group Handle while dosing for the last 10+ years and never experienced the problems touted by the so-called gurus...

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Journeyman
    replied
    I'll try not tapping and see if it improves the flow. It's a light tap I use anyway as I noticed a heavy tap disrupted my nice lightly-tamped puck. But the tap I was doing was not after my final tamp, it was to settle the newly ground pile into the filter. Then I tamp it.

    I've seen (but never done) some coffee makers bang their PF solidly on the bench - maybe they don't have my miserliness about watching my hard earned coffee grounds spray across the bench.

    The finger tap I mention is just a gentle tapping on the side to get the dome to even out after grinding, then a light tap on the mat and tamp it.

    Something I've wondered about; should I polish after each tamp? I've been tending not to because I thought it might create planar surfaces deep in the puck rather than allowing a smooth transition between tamped amounts. I learned the no-pressure-polish thing very early on when I noticed the difficulty I was having keeping my coffee level if I spun the tamper while under pressure. It was much easier to tamp level then spin the tamp than try to keep a rotating tamper level.

    Interesting read on tamping. Mind you, his one about the God Shot was pretty informative - must go make a coffee...

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X