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  • #31
    Originally posted by DuaneDibbley View Post
    What are fines? Are they bits of grind which are less than average size?
    Hi DuaneDibbley

    Yes, the smallest pieces of shattered bean. Traditionally it was thought that some fines add resistance to the puck* and that was "a very good thing". It is becoming a debatable issue nowadays (refer to the latest Nordic Challenge last month if curious). The "fines issue" is a simple surface area / volume equation: the smaller pieces extract faster and go bitter first. Given no grinder can produce a fully uniform size (yet!) there are also a few coarser bits which take longer to extract. Their sourness tends to even out the "fines bitterness". If there are only a few "outliers" on both sides of the size spectrum it seems to make very little discernible difference to taste (possibly it broadens the whole experience out). Hopefully the huge majority of particles are in the middle range, which provides the main extraction.

    That is why I have posted elsewhere on CS that I can overcome most hurdles in machines etc, but a poor grinder is (way) beyond my expertise to sort.

    It is also fair to mention that different people have differing tastes and tolerances (thank goodness, it would be boring if everyone would only accept one item of every food which must be done in only one way... shudder), and some coffee fiends run deliberately unbalanced shots (i.e. ristretto, lungo etc) to match their preferences (and fair enough). You seem to dislike bitterness and notice its presence, so in your case it is significant. I do not know your grinder at all so I do not know if it is the culprit. I only know that if the grinder generates too many fines it is very difficult to correct without making a whole batch of other tradeoffs: most of which I find unacceptable in terms of the resulting flavour in the cup and there will still be a hint of underlying bitterness anyway. There is an interesting post by Jim Shulman on this point: How filter baskets affect espresso taste and barista technique - Reviews • Home-Barista.com. Just read the first two or three paragraphs if you do not want to get buried in tech talk. OTOH, feel free to read all the comments as well if you are a masochist / geek.

    *BTW, the other hint in my view: your puck looks a little too coarse if anything which would actually reduce bitterness at the expense of sourness. That is also why some CS'rs commented it may be underdosed as the bigger particles show less clarity in the "good old Silvia hex imprint" compared to what they are used to. My take: dosing OK, grinding not, basket worse.

    FWIW, if I was asked to sort it out I would start with the grinder.

    Hope this helps.

    TampIt

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Dimal View Post
      Grab a 12mm long Pan-Head or Countersunk s/s screw to replace it and then at least, you won't have problems with the head of the bolt destroying the integrity of said puck. Don't know why Rancilio still do this...
      Pan head will still go into the puck a little, depending on your dose. I've got a box of the right CS SS screws for any CSers wanting to do this, but I wouldn't necessarily suggest it - you should countersink your water distributor as well or else the countersunk head will not only protrude into the puck, it will trap coffee under the head.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Hildy View Post
        Pan head will still go into the puck a little, depending on your dose. I've got a box of the right CS SS screws for any CSers wanting to do this, but I wouldn't necessarily suggest it - you should countersink your water distributor as well or else the countersunk head will not only protrude into the puck, it will trap coffee under the head.
        +1. The only real "non water distribution" fix I ever achieved for a Silvia was via 4 Lian Li stainless computer screws. They were an exact fit and have very low flat heads. Their Philips No2 slots actually goes below the head into the shank. Fixed four of my friends Silvia's and have never seen the same type of screws since (even though I have done dozens of Lian Li server cases before and after). They leave about a 1mm impression. I agree w Dimal: Why, Rancilio, why?

        TampIt

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        • #34
          The dose is fine, my advice if budget permits is to buy a Mazzer Robur-E( probably the best and last grinder you will ever buy in the current market.) I find hand grinders to be very inconsistent in particle size.

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          • #35
            Hi there.

            Look, I gotta disagree on that one. Great for those running (real) volume cafes, for which it is designed, but not a good home grinder for those two cups of coffee in the morning....kind of like buying a kenworth prime mover for the wife to run the kids to school every morning. Perhaps "best" in the situation it is designed for, but in my opinion, not so for the application which is the subject of this thread.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by AFC View Post
              The dose is fine, my advice if budget permits is to buy a Mazzer Robur-E( probably the best and last grinder you will ever buy in the current market.) I find hand grinders to be very inconsistent in particle size.
              I would defy anyone to prove a good set of burrs in a Pharos would be "inconsistent in particle size". Even more so the HG one. Actually, it would have to be a freshly cleaned and calibrated Robur to come close. One other point: would you back the engineering of an Italian commercial & industrial grinder company or a Swiss industrial grinder company who is only recently going "downmarket" into commercial and domestic? That and incredibly good "finer than traditional espresso" performance & adjustment is why I bought a Mahlkonig Vario for home (at less than half the Robur price). Time will tell how often I need to replace the long life ceramic burrs, however I suspect I am talking years.

              Originally posted by TOK View Post
              Hi there.

              Look, I gotta disagree on that one. Great for those running (real) volume cafes, for which it is designed, but not a good home grinder for those two cups of coffee in the morning....kind of like buying a kenworth prime mover for the wife to run the kids to school every morning. Perhaps "best" in the situation it is designed for, but in my opinion, not so for the application which is the subject of this thread.
              + 1 TOK. The "kenworth prime mover" quote is exactly why I bought a Mahlkonig Vario and have semi-retired my RR45 (another big beast conical). Less than 5 coffees and the big beast is not really into its stride. Testing it at Xmas party, the Vario did 40 coffees in two hours without getting warm. Impressive by any standard. I did have the RR45 on standby as I was waiting for the Vario to show a sign of stress. It didn't. Another nice surprise from the Swiss (quiet, small and no mess on the bench are the other "nice to live with points").

              Enjoy your NY


              TampIt

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              • #37
                Something I noticed that doesn't seem to be pointed out.
                You are getting flavours you don't like with beans from Nessun Dorma but you don't get them at either LTD or DiBella.
                Have you tried beans from either ltd or DiBella at home?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                  I bought a Mahlkonig Vario for home (at less than half the Robur price). Time will tell how often I need to replace the long life ceramic burrs, however I suspect I am talking years



                  The burrs may outlast the grinder.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by AFC View Post
                    The burrs may outlast the grinder.
                    Hi AFC

                    Sorry to shatter your myth: pick up a Mahlkonig Vario gen2 (they are surprisingly heavy) and then check out the industrial strength frame wrapped around a domestic shell. I come from a family of engineers and the Vario gen2 is a very solid beast indeed under the skin. Even the top burr holder is beyond most commercials in terms of solidity.

                    Too early to tell, however I suspect it may outlast a Robur SJ, and I have years of experience with them. The Vario burrs are almost certainly able to go a lot longer if the research is accurate: 3 times the life of equivalent "Mahlkonig steel" burrs. Some cafes I still deal with have to replace their SJ burrs every three months or so (a $2,000 yearly hit). One of them has a ten+ year old Mahlkonig (EK43 ancestor) still on the original auger / burrs. Apart from guesstimating it has done way over a tonne of coffee (& outlasted the last 4 owners), it still does a better grind than their SJ managed after I did an A to Z clean & calibrate. They are now looking at the EK43 and the Forte based on running costs alone. All the Mahlkonig's seem to do a much better, tighter particle spread at Turkish to espresso grinds compared to their competitors.

                    I guess it comes down to Swiss vs Italian engineering again: no contest.

                    Add to that the domestic friendliness of the Vario (no mess on the bench, quiet, small footprint, accurate & fast to adjust within espresso ranges, minimal grind retention).

                    TampIt

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      OK... that's twice now that you've referred to Mahlkonig as being Swiss. I'm pretty sure they're based in Hamburg... and that is definitely in Germany

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
                        OK... that's twice now that you've referred to Mahlkonig as being Swiss. I'm pretty sure they're based in Hamburg... and that is definitely in Germany
                        And I'm pretty sure your correct Vinitasse, Germany it is.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
                          OK... that's twice now that you've referred to Mahlkonig as being Swiss. I'm pretty sure they're based in Hamburg... and that is definitely in Germany
                          After some research, yes Mahlkonig is based in Hamburg but as of 2007 they merged with a company named Ditting from Switzerland. Since then, it's been a joint venture with manufacturing plants in both Hamburg, Germany and Bachenbulach, Switzerland.

                          As the grinder being discussed here is a Vario, which was released in 2009 for domestic use, I would imagine it would have design influences from the Swiss. It does say that Ditting and Mahlkonig will continue as two separate entities so I'm not sure how much their partnership affects new products and their brand names.

                          Read here for more info: http://www.mahlkoenig.com/pages/comp...Language=en_US

                          Not sure if people just pick on Tampit's posts because they think they're too long or something, or they're peeved that he probably knows more than they do, but it's a bit tedious seeing it in like every thread.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by noidle22 View Post
                            After some research, yes Mahlkonig is based in Hamburg but as of 2007 they merged with a company named Ditting from Switzerland. Since then, it's been a joint venture with manufacturing plants in both Hamburg, Germany and Bachenbulach, Switzerland.

                            As the grinder being discussed here is a Vario, which was released in 2009 for domestic use, I would imagine it would have design influences from the Swiss. It does say that Ditting and Mahlkonig will continue as two separate entities so I'm not sure how much their partnership affects new products and their brand names.

                            Read here for more info: History of the traditional brand manufacturer Mahlkönig. - Mahlkönig

                            Not sure if people just pick on Tampit's posts because they think they're too long or something, or they're peeved that he probably knows more than they do, but it's a bit tedious seeing it in like every thread.
                            Wasn't picking on Tampit at all... was just being my usual pedantic self. If the crux of one's argument was to be summed up as follows: "I guess it comes down to Swiss vs Italian engineering again: no contest." ...I would hope that they get the nationalities straight.

                            And, since you brought it up, I do much prefer it when someone is able to provide 10 words worth of useful information by actually using 10 words, rather than requiring hundreds to deliver the same message. After all, life is far to short as it is.

                            I

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                            • #44
                              Let's keep it civil folks.


                              Java "Polishing his boots" phile
                              Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
                                Wasn't picking on Tampit at all... was just being my usual pedantic self. If the crux of one's argument was to be summed up as follows: "I guess it comes down to Swiss vs Italian engineering again: no contest." ...I would hope that they get the nationalities straight.

                                And, since you brought it up, I do much prefer it when someone is able to provide 10 words worth of useful information by actually using 10 words, rather than requiring hundreds to deliver the same message. After all, life is far to short as it is.

                                I
                                Fair enough, I personally like a mix of long and short responses. A good write up on a topic can be a good read, it can cover multiple topics and provide insight on several points. I can understand why people can't be bothered reading through it all though.

                                At work, I tend to write a lot in an email but this mostly keeps the back and forth with the emailing to a minimum as the recipient doesn't need to ask questions about something because I've already covered it. It ensures efficient use of time. I think this is probably why I lean towards liking long replies more.

                                Also, to mention something sort of on topic, I'll probably be buying a Compak K3 Push or a Macap M4M when I get back from holidays.

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