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  • Viviane
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    JavaB, youre right, of course. Ill stop playing devils advocate now, and go and try some of the Malawi beans that I roasted yesterday. I know from the other African beans that I have that its too early, but thats my CHOICE. ;D

    Leave a comment:


  • JavaB
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    Viv,

    But Choice is about the consumer making an informed choice (funny that!)...

    So wouldnt it be a good idea for them to inform their members about just that.

    They could, for example, have a short spiel about the types of coffee sources which can be used, how they are used and how the resultant coffee varies in taste - broken down into something like:

    Supermarket preground
    Supermarket beans
    Freshly roasted beans.....

    So they are letting their members understand their choice in that area first.... and having done that they could then rate the machines against those types of raw material.....

    Im sure if consumers were properly informed they would make better choices (no doubt with some still preferring the easy, cheap method and machine - as is their right).....

    And isnt that what Choice is all about?..... And isnt that what their members are entitled to? A golden opportunity missed IMHO. :

    Until consumer organisations and most retailers see fit to inform consumers of their choice in this area...... we will have plenty of people to help and educate, thats for sure.

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  • Viviane
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    JavaB, I agree with you, but my point was that the average person doesnt know that there is better coffee than supermarket bricks. The person at Choice responsible for that testing may not realise the significance of it either, particularly since only one of the three testers bothered to point out that fresh roasted coffee is better. You know how many people come to this site that we educate about coffee quality. Thats the world.

    And thats why were Coffee Snobs......

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  • JavaB
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    Viv,

    Choice either need to test just low end "appliances" (as Mal suggested) or qualify their testing with what they used (supermarket pre-ground) with a disclaimer something like "Results may vary with different quality/freshness of beans"....

    It is ridiculous to compare quality machines with low end appliances in any meaningful (to the consumer) way without giving some insight as to what the results mean......

    It would be like comparing front loader and top loader washing machines using the same (ordinary) washing powder in both...... the front loaders would be a disaster (My brother in law has already tried "normal" detergent in a front loader :).

    And that is a valid comparison as to get the most out of a washing machine you need to use the correct detergent - Choice know this and it is reported correctly...... Why cant the same methodology be used for coffee machines?

    "Ordinary consumers" - whatever that means- can and do use freshly roasted beans (whole and pre-ground) as well as supermarket bricks.... they even sell whole beans in supermarkets!

    So all they need to do is qualify their results - I dont expect a full scientific breakdown - but some indication of the variation which can occur is needed. Without that the consumers are being miss- informed rather than being given valid information with which to make a decision.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thundergod
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    They are only a few minutes away from Hazel if they wanted fresh coffee.

    varanid99 - What is quality?
    It varies. Basically it menas something is fit for purpose. So things need to meet a minimum standard otherwise they dont represent quality in the eyes of the beholder.

    To understand what level of quality is expected, a requirements determination process needs to be undertaken ahead of the build/test to set that standard.

    Thats why I asked grendel in his original post what Choice were testing/looking for.

    If you dont set the expectations you dont know if the result is quality or not.

    I see too many holes in the expectations that Choice set up front for there to be any meaningful output from their published findings.

    The setup was flawed.

    Garbage in = garbage out.

    FOr balance, having said that, I still like reading it as a starting point to keep me informed on consumer happenings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Viviane
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    Originally posted by JavaB link=1173669662/30#35 date=1173874007
    Meg,

    Whilst Ill agree Choice do get some things right....

    Their coffee machine review isnt one of them. Their overall rating isnt the issue but more their rating for things like quality of the coffee, even ease of use.

    The scores they give bear little resemblance to what the machines really do, and without details of what they used etc ... for example if they used old stale coffee then those brands with pressurised PFs will outperform the normal machines.....

    Who would put old stale coffee in an expensive machine (well maybe Choice).... and with the appropriate coffee for that machine the results would have been way different....

    What if I decided I was going to review cars..... and I chose diesel as the fuel (but didnt state that in the results....)
    Gee the Rolls Royce and the Ferrari were cr@p ..... they wouldnt even start!!!

    Fair review of cars? - I dont think so...... and that is also true of the Choice review of coffee machines.... they can write down the more expensive machines on value for money, and in some cases maybe a little for ease of use.... BUT........ in this case the results are too suspect to have any value.
    I understand what youre saying, JavaB, but Choice caters for the average Joe - and in the case of coffee and cars that means Vittorio bricks and unleaded petrol. The average person doesnt use fresh roasted coffee, they are used to the taste of stale preground beans and if they happen to get fresh coffee, it tastes different to what they are used to. Brands such as Vittorio are marketed as the best, and so most people go for that. So supermarket coffee is what Choice would have used. It probably wouldnt occur to them to go to a roaster and get fresh beans, and in the same way they wouldnt think of putting diesel in a Rolls or Ferrari.

    Pity though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    Originally posted by varanid99 link=1173669662/30#37 date=1173879554
    (Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance)
    Great book by the way 8-)

    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dimal
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    No,

    Certainly not Meg. I think JB hit the nail on the head with his description and comparison with wine...... Not from the perspective of drinking the stuff, but making it.

    I know there is a significant group of people who love to make their own wine at home too, a couple of our friends do. I can imagine if Choice decided to tackle this most sacred of pastimes (to the people who do it), and made all sorts of uneducated statements about which method produces the best wine, and why another method is not as good as its too difficult to do and the wine doesnt taste as good anyway (never mind that they used Woolies bought grapes instead of specialist ripened on the vine varieties).

    It probably comes down to confusion over what constitutes a coffee making appliance and that which is a very specialised piece of hardware requiring dedication and a development of hard won skills to use successfully. Perhaps they should limit their "reviews" to hardware that is sold under the general banner of Appliances and bought by consumers who consider them to be the same.... Such as lower echelon Breville, Sunbeam, DeLonghi, Krupps, types of machines.

    Of course the other issue, is the lack of stress placed on the importance of owning a good quality grinder. None of their reviews, especially the earlier ones, waste much printers ink on this very important topic.... The current review makes a passing comment only that you should grind the coffee immediately prior to brewing...... A good point of course but thats about all they have to say on the matter of grinding coffee. Anyway, all this venting is good for the soul but wont realise any change in the way Choice goes about its business of reviewing coffee machines.... They are, after all, only appliances and not specialised pieces of equipment :P.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

    Leave a comment:


  • varanid99
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    What is Quality?


    (sorry. On a Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence kick at the moment.....)

    Leave a comment:


  • meg-e
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    JavaB,

    absolutely agree! The coffee machine reviews were silly. I was just hoping people werent writing them off completely because of these.

    cheers,

    Meg

    Leave a comment:


  • JavaB
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    Meg,

    Whilst Ill agree Choice do get some things right....

    Their coffee machine review isnt one of them. Their overall rating isnt the issue but more their rating for things like quality of the coffee, even ease of use.

    The scores they give bear little resemblance to what the machines really do, and without details of what they used etc ... for example if they used old stale coffee then those brands with pressurised PFs will outperform the normal machines.....

    Who would put old stale coffee in an expensive machine (well maybe Choice).... and with the appropriate coffee for that machine the results would have been way different....

    What if I decided I was going to review cars..... and I chose diesel as the fuel (but didnt state that in the results....)
    Gee the Rolls Royce and the Ferrari were cr@p ..... they wouldnt even start!!!

    Fair review of cars? - I dont think so...... and that is also true of the Choice review of coffee machines.... they can write down the more expensive machines on value for money, and in some cases maybe a little for ease of use.... BUT........ in this case the results are too suspect to have any value.

    Leave a comment:


  • meg-e
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    Ummm

    will I get flamed if I stick up for choice here???

    Okay so they dont do very well on the coffee machine front... and I take Mals point about their inability to accept constructive feedback(as no doubt it is coming from Mal) . I think you have to keep in mind that the difference between their reviews of coffee machines and a coffeesnobs is a matter of refined / unrefined palate and differing priorities. For a coffeesnob for example price may never be weighted as highly (if at all) as it is in Choice. Ease of use might also be something that wouldnt even occur to a CS - how many posts to we read about people "getting used to" their new machines.

    So, I think good coffee is just one of those things that cant be reviewed by a popular consumer magazine - a bit like wine really. There seems to be more to understand about the quality of coffee than there is to understand about the quality of dishwashers. Too much to distill through their testing methodology.

    In any case, they ARE the only consumer advocacy group around with any clout. The other ACCC associated website (notgoodenough.org.au) also seems to be quite powerful as a "lobby" group for individuals. Given the number of posts made here about poor quality service from companies - we cant really ignore that.


    I used their review to buy my Asko dishwasher (which they do seem to do well!) and their babys gear guides have been invaluable in helping us avoid spending stupid amounts of money on things we dont need. (yes I know this has nothing to do with coffee)

    And lets face it Indira is COOL! Who wouldnt want to listen to her?

    Cheers,

    Meg (choice subscriber from WAY back)

    Leave a comment:


  • nunu
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    You can always report them to some agency for misleading the public.

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  • robusto
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    Maybe we should flood their inbox with an avalanche of mail.

    -Robusto

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  • grendel
    replied
    Re: Choice Magazine survey

    So if a consumer of a consumer magazine has an issue with the consumer organisation and their testing methods who do you call for advice - a shonky mechanic?

    I would have hoped that in holding people to high standards they might have been more open to advice. Certainly the list had a large number of machines rating highly that just dont make good coffee.

    Leave a comment:

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