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Trying to improve extraction with a new high end machine - some pointers please!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Steve82 View Post
    If someone perceives the shot as bitter, its bitter plain and simple, all the studies in the world don't change that.
    Therefore, if someone perceives that the moon is made of cheese, it is made of cheese... plain and simple? Sour is sour and bitter is bitter and never the twain shall meet.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Steve82 View Post
      I know you like to include pre infusion in the total shot time....
      Of course I do... as should anyone who logically acknowledges that when hot water is in contact with ground coffee it is, by definition, brewing and must be included in the calculation of the total shot time.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
        Of course I do... as should anyone who logically acknowledges that when hot water is in contact with ground coffee it is, by definition, brewing and must be included in the calculation of the total shot time.

        Not necessarily; the lower flow rate will result in a reduced extraction rate (as solvent of a lower concentration of solute will extract solute faster than solvent containing a greater concentration of solute. There is also the possibility that the water passing through during preinfusion might become saturated before making its way to the bottom of the basket (as which point it will be unable to extract anything further).

        Is this difference significant outside of a complete choker? Don't know, but it's not to be dismissed out of hand.

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        • #34
          The rate of extraction notwithstanding, the coffee is still being extracted to some degree and is, therefore, being brewed. The coffee is also being subjected to heat in the vicinity of 92-96 degrees for the entire infusion period so if you want to make sure your coffee isn't being burnt you will have to take that time into consideration.

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          • #35
            Really, your points highlight the fact that measures of total brew time, brew volume or TDS are too crude to reflect the dynamics of the process.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Vinitasse View Post
              The rate of extraction notwithstanding, the coffee is still being extracted to some degree and is, therefore, being brewed. The coffee is also being subjected to heat in the vicinity of 92-96 degrees for the entire infusion period so if you want to make sure your coffee isn't being burnt you will have to take that time into consideration.
              Two questions:

              - If you include everything from regular to negligible extraction rate in the extraction time, doesn't the extraction time become a completely useless number for anything except shot-to-shot consistency on your own machine?

              - Does coffee actually burn or degrade due to heat at reasonable extraction temperatures in the time frame we're talking?

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              • #37
                Simple resolution. Count (what I will call) "Infusion" time and "Extraction" time separately.

                Infusion time is the time from the first water hitting the coffee to either first drops from the basket (if using naked) or first drops seen on the spouts (if using spouted).
                Extraction time is the rest of the time until pump deactivated.

                Both are important times, and variations in these times will absolutely affect extraction and taste. Infusion time - or more so pressure - will definitely affect both infusion time and extraction time, as a longer low pressure pre infusion (eg water mains pressure only) will INCREASE flow rate. In practice this means you can grind finer. If I am pre infusing with mains pressure, I can grind 1-2 notches finer on the SJ. Same grind size will choke an immediate pump activation brew, but mains pre infused brew, where pump is activated when first drops appear from the basket, will flow.

                We are so far from the OPs questions - sorry Leonardo!

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                • #38
                  Simpler solution. Look and don't count.

                  Judge the shot by appearance and most importantly balance (i.e. taste). We have senses and once shown how to use them, it's actually easy.

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                  • #39
                    I agree with you Chris, timing is a nice base line when you are learning the ropes but at some stage you should let your senses take over and let them be your guide. The slayer journey has had me throw away all my previous notions on brewing coffee and turn on the senses, and I'm loving it.

                    Chester

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                      Simpler solution. Look and don't count.

                      Judge the shot by appearance and most importantly balance (i.e. taste). We have senses and once shown how to use them, it's actually easy.
                      Quoted for awesomeness!

                      This thread has really gotten away from its OP.
                      Is there somewhere else we can argue about "whats right" and such?

                      I'm gonna go dig up an old thread or start a new one for some healthy extraction discussion and general garbage

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                        Wow. The OP must be totally confused by now.

                        Chris
                        That's what I was thinking!!!!


                        It's all somewhat relevant though. At the very least it shows how much time people put into working this stuff out and yet it's still subjective. It'll never be any different because everyone has different tastes and the definitions are too narrow to fit the wide variety of all those tastes.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                          Simpler solution. Look and don't count.

                          Judge the shot by appearance and most importantly balance (i.e. taste). We have senses and once shown how to use them, it's actually easy.
                          Having had nothing but a Gaggia Classic and Breville grinder until recently this sort of approach was the only one available to me. You can get some amazing results this way.

                          I've never had much exposure to high end equipment so excuse me if this is a stupid question, but would a programmable grinder not improve dose consistency?

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                          • #43
                            Thanks for the offer! Will look you up next time I am in Melbourne.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
                              Having had nothing but a Gaggia Classic and Breville grinder until recently this sort of approach was the only one available to me. You can get some amazing results this way.

                              I've never had much exposure to high end equipment so excuse me if this is a stupid question, but would a programmable grinder not improve dose consistency?
                              Sure, though plenty of people get by fine dosing by eye..

                              A ten dollar scale will perform the same function if you want to take the guess work out., it's about whether you want pay for extra convenience.

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                              • #45
                                Great advice Bames, and I'll get a suitable scale! On a crude kitchen scale I am filling the 17g basket with 19g of grinds.

                                I have now calibrated the volume delivered - the machine delivers in pulses and this needs to be corrected for by setting the 'volume' by running water through a coarse grind and fixing it at the point where 60mls are delivered. My tamping is consistent and I am getting 40mls in 25 seconds. Tasting great now. Borderline ristretto? I am sticking with the same coffee blend for now to limit variables. Great journey through the variables and the effect on taste!

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