Trying to improve extraction with a new high end machine - some pointers please!

[Barry_Duncan]

There is a lot of hogwash in this string. Not all but some.

The long and short of it is, if you like what you brew then stick to it. If you don’t like it then change your methods but only change one thing at a time until you like it.

I don't see many baristas in cafes weighing their doses.

I have weighed my dose buy only rarely. I dose consistently by the depth that my tamper goes into the basket. The main thing I adjust is the grind.

Barry

[RobertHolmes]

Grummer, I thought the internet was a bit more complex than that .

Seriously though, I think the diagram sums up the thread nicely [even though there's no refractive index axis ]

[Grummer]

I found this diagram of the internet, does this help at all? anyone comment? I have it pinned on the wall in my kitchen,...

[MrJack]

Grinding finer does not increase solubility (which is a property of the chemicals being dissolved).

Grinding finer increases the surface area in contact with the solvent (water). This will increase the rate of dissolution in certain circumstances.


That aside, soluble components are also only part of the espresso story. There are other extraction mechanisms at play, which are unique to espresso preparation and which have a significant impact on taste/enjoyment but which are not dependent on solubility or concentration of soluble components.

-----
As to refractometry and it's usefulness, I'm a fan of useful data. Unfortunately, usefulness depends almost entirely on how well you understand the context in which it was collected, and its relationship to the problem at hand.

I see refractometer measurements much like shot time or shot weight. Their correlation to taste must vary with other independent variables. So, whilst useful in context, "the numbers" are clearly not the whole picture.

As an analogy, blindly chasing the highest TDS is a bit like trying to guess how much someone enjoyed their holiday by only asking them how long they were away.

Possibly an ok strategy if everyone you meet has just come back from Fiji. Not as useful when you meet someone who just got out of prison...

[muppet_man67]

Refractometers don't tell you if the coffee tastes good. They tell you what you did when the coffee tasted good/bad/average, they are useful for communicating with a team of people, or from roaster to barista the brewing parameters they find work well with their coffee.

Further from a roast point of view they provide a consistent benchmark. If the coffee tastes different from one week to the next the roaster and barista can know if it tasting different due to how its being brewed or how its being roasted, you've got the numbers. It becomes indisputable.

Ie common scenario, A barista says to a roaster. "Your coffee tastes acidic this week, I am making it perfectly your coffee is the problem" The roaster typically responds. "No way, my roasts are always perfect, you are under extracting it"

If you have a way to objectively measure extraction you can put an end to this back and forth. Palates are subjective and when your trying to diagnose an issue over the phone, numbers like dose, yield time and extraction percentage can tell you lots about whether your likely to be tasting the same thing.

As far as a way of thinking goes. I've found it incredibly helpful to think about brewing espresso and coffee more generally as all about dissolving. Everything you adjust has an impact on how quickly or how much coffee solid is going to be dissolved into your cup. A finer grind makes coffee more soluble, a lower dose will increase your flow so your coffee will extract faster. VST baskets, help increase solubility by enabling a finer grind.

For some coffees and roasting styles that are already quite soluble using VST baskets and aiming for high yields will bring out defect and roastiness and if you keep all your brewing parameters the same will lead to an over extracted cup. In regards to dosing into VST baskets, It's a common internet fallacy that VST baskets should not be up dosed. I don't agree with this at all. With my 20gm VST's I typically use somewhere between 21.5-22.5 gm. Shower screen hight, pressure, temperature, roast, freshness, altitude your coffee was grown at and pre-infusion and water minerality all have an impact on solubility and hence in regards to dose YMMV.

[Banjo.au]

It's not in the Humour thread, so a lot of them wouldn't have recognised it.

[kwantfm]

I thought it was pretty clear that this post by Andy was a bit of self-deprecating humour.....in the spirit of a friendly discussion.

Agreed... I thought Andy was being massively sarcastic.

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Nope, not possible. It doesn't matter if a shot tastes great, the only thing that matters is the refractometer reading.

I thought it was pretty clear that this post by Andy was a bit of self-deprecating humour.....in the spirit of a friendly discussion.

[TC]

Do customers in coffee establishments buy coffee because of a refractometer reading, or because it tastes good?

You couldn't have hit the bullseye any more comprehensively if you tried Bosco. You can extract as much as you like refractometer style, but it continues to be damn tricky to polish a turd.

[Bosco_Lever]

Here's an interesting and well thought out post to throw into the mix, just posted by MyCuppa on the Crema Forum.

"mycuppa

Brett, I am not surprised with what you experienced, although my own personal thoughts on differences for top notes are perhaps not that great, but of course it will depend upon machine, grinder and extraction style.

Here is some real comparative information from back-to-back testing using machines, grinders and baskets at the same time - not the rubbish you read on forums elsewhere about people banging on about their god-shots at home.

I spend a lot of time during the week and weekend on the road visiting clients and also checking out cafes that are not clients - not selling, but just experiencing and learning.

Yesterday, I had not intended to do this, but ended up doing a mini cafe crawl from 1pm through to 7pm with one of my absolutely mad coffee nut customers (he roped me in, yet again).

The objective was to find the unofficial best 8oz takeaway cup in Melbourne. We had already had some vigorous debates in the weeks leading up to yesterday in order to narrow down the short-list.

I make a habit of asking the geeky barista's at cafes what baskets (type and size) they run, along with volumes in and out, shot times and yields.

My friend runs a LM GB5 with Synesso baskets. His brother who owns another quality specialty cafe also runs Synesso baskets on his LM Mistral.

They have both been through the use of VST baskets many times over the years but in the end they dumped the VST's for the Synesso baskets because there is less channeling and more consistency with the Synesso baskets compared to the VST.

In a busy cafe, you need consistency first and foremost before a possible "high note". As you are pumping out coffees, consistency can and will drop under pressure and other factors like grinders getting hot blades, etc. all contribute to less than ideal shots, or variations that need to be compensated for.

Time and again, the Synesso baskets have proved to deliver the best back-to-back consistency. Without doubt

In terms of high notes, we have spent hours and hours on the best machines and grinders and compared one basket to the other. When the shots are perfect on each basket, the resultant cup has been impossible to reach a clear and unanimous decision on which basket has the edge - it's always a split decision.

Again, we are dealing with personal preferences on cup notes and character, thus we could not agree on which basket produced the best shot.

Taking a step to the prosumer level, if I looked at my own home setup of PID multi-boiler machine with Robur-E and Kony-E grinders, I tend to prefer the VST baskets as I am only making a few cups and have plenty of time to sink those that don't measure up.

In my mind, when I am at home, first thing in the morning, it's the most important coffee of the day as my palate will be most receptive.

There are times when I absolutely curse these damn VST baskets (particularly on a machines that have smaller flow restrictors installed) and these are tempered with my moments of joyous delight when it all magically comes together and works a treat.

My sense is that for the majority of home espresso setups, there is perhaps a 50/50 split between the good+great shots versus barely-drinkable shots for those using VST's. Somewhat akin to a roller coaster ride.

Is one basket better than the other ? Perhaps. But it will depend upon your goals."

As you said, a very well thought out post.

In other posts Jeff has also admitted to owning, but not needing to use a refractometer, as his taste buds are a better guide.

Unfortunately, it seems that such an admission from a successful, experienced coffee roaster would be met with the following retort:

Insert "SARCASM".

Nope, not possible. It doesn't matter if a shot tastes great, the only thing that matters is the refractometer reading.

Further musings:

Are barista championships judged on these readings or on taste?

Do customers in coffee establishments buy coffee because of a refractometer reading, or because it tastes good?

[Yelta]

Here's an interesting and well thought out post to throw into the mix, just posted by MyCuppa on the Crema Forum.

"mycuppa

Brett, I am not surprised with what you experienced, although my own personal thoughts on differences for top notes are perhaps not that great, but of course it will depend upon machine, grinder and extraction style.

Here is some real comparative information from back-to-back testing using machines, grinders and baskets at the same time - not the rubbish you read on forums elsewhere about people banging on about their god-shots at home.

I spend a lot of time during the week and weekend on the road visiting clients and also checking out cafes that are not clients - not selling, but just experiencing and learning.

Yesterday, I had not intended to do this, but ended up doing a mini cafe crawl from 1pm through to 7pm with one of my absolutely mad coffee nut customers (he roped me in, yet again).

The objective was to find the unofficial best 8oz takeaway cup in Melbourne. We had already had some vigorous debates in the weeks leading up to yesterday in order to narrow down the short-list.

I make a habit of asking the geeky barista's at cafes what baskets (type and size) they run, along with volumes in and out, shot times and yields.

My friend runs a LM GB5 with Synesso baskets. His brother who owns another quality specialty cafe also runs Synesso baskets on his LM Mistral.

They have both been through the use of VST baskets many times over the years but in the end they dumped the VST's for the Synesso baskets because there is less channeling and more consistency with the Synesso baskets compared to the VST.

In a busy cafe, you need consistency first and foremost before a possible "high note". As you are pumping out coffees, consistency can and will drop under pressure and other factors like grinders getting hot blades, etc. all contribute to less than ideal shots, or variations that need to be compensated for.

Time and again, the Synesso baskets have proved to deliver the best back-to-back consistency. Without doubt

In terms of high notes, we have spent hours and hours on the best machines and grinders and compared one basket to the other. When the shots are perfect on each basket, the resultant cup has been impossible to reach a clear and unanimous decision on which basket has the edge - it's always a split decision.

Again, we are dealing with personal preferences on cup notes and character, thus we could not agree on which basket produced the best shot.

Taking a step to the prosumer level, if I looked at my own home setup of PID multi-boiler machine with Robur-E and Kony-E grinders, I tend to prefer the VST baskets as I am only making a few cups and have plenty of time to sink those that don't measure up.

In my mind, when I am at home, first thing in the morning, it's the most important coffee of the day as my palate will be most receptive.

There are times when I absolutely curse these damn VST baskets (particularly on a machines that have smaller flow restrictors installed) and these are tempered with my moments of joyous delight when it all magically comes together and works a treat.

My sense is that for the majority of home espresso setups, there is perhaps a 50/50 split between the good+great shots versus barely-drinkable shots for those using VST's. Somewhat akin to a roller coaster ride.

Is one basket better than the other ? Perhaps. But it will depend upon your goals."

[Dragunov21]

circumspect

I suspect passive-aggressive would be an equally-appropriate, if less generous term (referring generally).

[Yelta]

Nice to see the VST football is still in play, I thought perhaps my presence was the catalyst that kept the pot boiling, but after over a months absence its nice to see the game is still well and truly in progress.

I'm not quite sure what constitutes a goal or even a minor score, regardless, this thread has provided many of us with some much needed levity.

I guess the question being debated over and over is "are VST baskets crap, on reflection the only people I have heard use this term are the very same group who are spruiking the unquestionable benefits of these laser cut wonders, on the other hand the deniers have been much more circumspect in their choice of terminology, as far as I know no one including myself have ever called them crap or anything even similar.

I imagine this thread will eventually run it's course, however cant see it happening any time in the near future.

[Vinitasse]

Agreed Vinitasse. You keep telling is over and over again that VSTs are crap, refractometer a are useless, and 'espresso' is only 'xyz' and anything outside that is wrong. But I wouldn't call you a tool, at least not to your face.

I challenge you to find even one post where I ever said VSTs were crap, or where I said refractometers were useless.

[stilloutthere]

A good mechanic knows when a bolt is tight enough without needing to get a torque wrench out every time. A good barista with good skills is comparable when pouring a shot.........