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Beans - roast dates on packets and keeping beans in the hopper overnight

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  • robusto
    replied
    Yes, a roasted-on date is infinitely more useful to us snobs than a best-before date which is somewhere many many months away. But then, people generally have no idea about the issue.

    lately I keep running out of degassed beans I home roast, and, alas, have dived into Coles to get some beans to tide me over until my freshly roasted ones are ready.

    Coles does, I must say, have a surpisingly wide selection. But I found only one, roasted in Melbourne, with a roast date. And that's usually already 3 weeks or so ago, and medium to dark which I'm not fond of.

    Another seems to have a best-before date approx 12 months from now. I contacted the roaster and asked whether that date is precisely 12 months from the undisclosed roast date, so I could determine how fresh/stale the beans were. The and the answer is no.


    Leave a comment:


  • EspressoAdventurer
    commented on 's reply
    In the Spirit & Voice of....'Dickie Nee'......

    Ah scuse me...scuse me Sir,
    There's a grammatical error on that label !
    Shouldn't that be .......The Snobbery ?
    hey? ....hey?

  • Andy
    replied
    As an example of what you should look for when looking at roast dates:

    This was green bean this morning, in the roaster today, in the post tonight and at it's destination tomorrow or the day after.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	roastdate.jpg
Views:	189
Size:	41.1 KB
ID:	912389

    CoffeeSnobs BeanBay isn't afraid to put a roast date on the bags and we can't see the need to use some obscure best before date.


    Leave a comment:


  • level3ninja
    commented on 's reply
    Actually a few years ago some of the big ones (e.g. V) moved to 14-15 months expiry from roast.

  • tompoland
    commented on 's reply
    It depends if you want peak flavor. For dark roasts I'll start drinking around 10 days post roast. Peak freshness will decline a little each day thereafter.

    I'll finish each dark roasted batch around 20 days post roast. After that the espresso viscosity will become progressively thinner and the flavor will become gradually weaker. You can track this decline by weighing the beans each time you grind and noting the duration of the pour and weighing the espresso poured. Assuming you keep the grind size and pour duration the same, as the viscosity and flavor decline you will notice an increase in the weight of the expresso poured.

    Any roaster who uses a Best Before date of 12 months post roast cares zero about freshness. Roasters who care about quality will print the roast date on the bag.

    The general buying public are unaware of how quickly roasted coffee beans deteriorate. They keep buying sub optimal beans because they just think that's how coffee normally tastes. Once they taste coffee at its peak, that's when they start to ask questions and fall down the rabbit hole like many of us on this forum have done. And it's a wonderful and remarkable rabbit hole that seems to have no bottom.

  • 51M0N
    replied
    Can't you normally go off the best before date and work backwards? If you are buying somewhere reasonably high volume (busy supermarket), then it generally isn't hard to work out how long they use (generally 12 months).

    Leave a comment:


  • Allen
    replied
    I am sure it will shock coffee purists, but I find Lavazza Grand Crema very satisfactory, and gives a consistent brew which we like. Does anyone know whether one of the codes on the pack indicates the packing date?

    Leave a comment:


  • chokkidog
    replied
    Originally posted by TOK View Post
    Someone above wrote that those that dont place dates are being delibertately deceiving. Are those that do place dates always entirely honest?
    Yeah... that was me TOK.

    Probably a little careless in my choice of words in my haste to be brief. ;-)

    Perhaps a less definitive wording might have gone along the lines of, "no roast date allows the opportunity to deceive"....

    And you are quite right in your second quoted observation.... just because there is a roast date it doesn't guarantee the truth.

    I would just hope that like me, and others here, most, if not all roasters would value integrity over $$$$. Wishful thinking, I know......

    Must away now to empty last week's unsold coffee ( only 4 kgs ) into the compost. :-(

    Leave a comment:


  • TOK
    replied
    In turn, thank you for your considered response.

    Not offended, just making sure the discussion is balanced.

    Not allowed according to site policy to mention who I have or dont have an affiliation with, because if a site sponsorship fee hasnt been paid, the site owner is at liberty to remove the reference if he decides that I made the reference in order for commercial gain (in a nutshell...dont quote me). Regardless if you want to search me, just look for the "Very First CS Site Sponsor", because there is no hidden agenda on my part and no problem for me to identify myself. In fact no longer being a site sponsor affords me a certain liberty within the site that is otherwise enjoyed by all the other anonymous experts in the place .

    Both my posts (above), as they stand, are relatively even handed and dont give commercial advantage to anyone I may still be connected with, and give about as much insight into "what is fresh coffee, and how does it influence the use of roast dates or not, by individual roasting businesses", as I am prepared to give in a public place.

    Further, as business becomes successful and grows, economies of scale come into effect and that includes the area of staff management. People often enough walk into business and expect whoever they are speaking with at the counter, to know as much about product as the oldest hands in the business OR the owner does. Unfortunately that is not real life, and sometimes shop assistants are placed under pressure particularly if they are not long in the business. They may be under instruction, possibly even on probabtion, and that is real life. However there will usually be a supervisor about that can be specific with questions asked.

    Lastly, I guess from part of your response above that there must be some kind of function in here that results in you receiving an email as ssoon as someone replies to one of your posts????? I've never had that activated and never think about it, i just check the site to see what is actually live. And so that will mean that from now on I will draft my replies off forum and bung them on when they are finals.

    Problems solved

    EDIT:
    Incidentally, in the business that I still own but dont manage or work in (disclaimer), there used to be a poster on display in the bean sales area, that I wrote (so it must be good ), that explained "WHAT IS FRESH COFFEE" and included some of the other stuff I mentioned above. Its the kind of thing a client can read and hopefully find informative and helpful, while they are waiting for their order to be prepared.

    Leave a comment:


  • gunda
    replied
    Thank you TOK for your considered reply. As the OP I'd like to make a few responses.

    As those who have seen my other posts will know, I am new to this scene and trying to learn. One of the first things a new serious coffee maker reads is about the importance of fresh coffee, but not too fresh. (Those beans that Andy is roasting for me today and which I will get in the next day or two won't be used until mid next week at the earliest). Everything you mentioned in your introduction to understanding coffee freshness I've already read on CS and other sites. And when I read CS I see roast dates mentioned a lot. The impression I got is that it's standard practice to put dates on packets. So you will understand my confusion when I go out to buy my coffee and find that some places do put dates on and some don't. And in this town it seems that it's the larger ones that don't. I'm not running an agenda here - I simply want to understand.

    I mentioned your editing of your post because there were some significant differences between what landed in my email in-tray as part of the thread subscription, and what is there now. The original contained some comments that I felt were highly inflammatory. You were wise IMHO to remove them. I mentioned this because these edits, together with a few other remarks, suggested to me that you were in the industry, and probably closely associated with one of the above-mentioned non-dated roasters.

    Now I don't have a problem with this, in fact I really welcome hearing the other side of the story. I thought that Chris/Talk_Coffee's comments were balanced, restrained and informative. But I do think that people in the industry should identify themselves and stand by their views publicly. I know that we users have our "noms de plume", but if you're out there selling things you're a public figure and I feel that you should be here too.

    Now this is a more assertive response that I would normally make online. I did this because I thought that your hypothetical scenario: "Do you prefer a professional roaster that runs a good ship and purveys good product, who chooses not to place dates on its packets, or another roaster that may be deliberately placing dates on packets to suit its own ends" sounded like you were responding in kind to a comment above that questioned the motives of those who don't put dates on packets. I understand that you may have been offended by such a comment. I probably would be too if I was in your shoes. But you do yourself and your industry no good service by simply responding in kind.

    As to your advice "When someone advises me that coffee I am buying is between 5 and 7 days old, I have to have a small element of trust and take the advice on face value", if it was given as clearly as that then perhaps I might. But when my questions about roast dates are initially met with repeated comments about company policy, and only when I pushed did I get a tentative statement containing the words "I think" and "probably", then trust has not been established. Now I readily concede that this was only one person on one occasion, so I thought I'd ask here before pursuing the issue. At the other non-dated roaster, the response was also couched in highly uncertain and tentative terms that didn't create the level of trust that you are suggesting. You'd think that this was a sufficiently common question that staff training would have given a better response. The impression I had at the first place was that they had been trained to stone-wall. Now that I have a clearer understanding of some of the issues I will try again and see what happens.

    Should I buy coffee more frequently and in smaller packets? Perhaps. That's what I've been doing so far. But it's often cheaper and always more convenient to buy in moderately larger sizes. And if I know the roast date, then I can have a couple of different roasts at home simultaneously and use them over a slightly longer time frame with a little confidence. I may try your suggestion to ask for the latest roast from out the back and see how far I get.

    Thank you again for taking the trouble to respond in such detail. Despite my reaction to your posts, I have found all the responses in this thread helpful.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barry O'Speedwagon
    replied
    Originally posted by TOK View Post



    If a client wishes to buy a packet of beans with the shortest possible roasted on date, just ask, and a well trained shop assistant should be in a position to dispense beans from whatever stock was roasted yesterday….which will by necessity be in a separate stock location to that which is ready for sale now. One expects that the client knows what to expect from beans like that.
    .
    Yep, that's exactly what I've done in the past with no problem. Had a good week or two supply at home, but found myself in Fyshwick, so asked the shop assistant went out the back and got the v. fresh stuff.

    Leave a comment:


  • TOK
    replied
    Thank you for the response.

    I ended my last post with the thought that the topic of roasted on dates isnt as simple as it seems.....Please allow me to elaborate now, apologies in advance for the necessarily long post.

    Firstly. If at any time you happen to be sitting on a topic that I am coincidentally replying to, you will find that my forum style is to write something off the cuff that is usually longer than it needs to be, and then arrange it and change it and cut it down into its final form.

    I don’t have a copy of what my reply started out as and it’s quite irrelevant because the only reply anyone needs to be concerned with is the one that is on forum. My feeling is that my previous forum post is quite even handed and I am not sure why anyone might think it is “defensive”. It simply puts a short reply that doesn’t agree “carte blanch” with the idea that everyone everywhere everytime should put roasted dates on coffee packets... we can’t all agree and it’s not all black and white !

    For the rest of it, please allow me to deal with some of the points you raised:
    ”….. in my case, it affects how much I buy. I also want a little confidence that I can don't have to gulp it all down asap. And what I have found a little uncomfortable is that on the few occasions when I have tried to ask about roast date, I've found it hard to get an answer. Perhaps I need to keep trying….”

    When someone advises me that coffee I am buying is between 5 and 7 days old, I have to have a small element of trust and take the advice on face value. Many professional roasters I know that deal in “fresh coffee” (ie don’t use a vacuum packaging system and sell “as is”) allow roughly 1 week from roasting day for the beans to develop and settle before it is put out for sale. They then put it out for sale in the second week, and ideally by the end of the second week or 14 days from roasting, it is gone. It would therefore seem that the information you were given from whatever roaster, is kosha enough.

    Also, this brings up the very legitimate question “WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF FRESH COFFEE”…. Because coffee that is sold too fresh (ie before it has developed during the initial settling / resting period), doesn’t work for the majority of clients who don’t have an understanding of this, causing complaints that can be traced back to selling coffee that is “too fresh”.

    The ultimate test is to take a packet of coffee home and try it. If it is good, the roasted date is irrelevant. If it is not good, it may have nothing to do with the roasted date regardless…..

    After you buy the packet and take it home, “fresh coffee” will continue to develop through its cycle and eventually go stale. It will change on a daily basis (normal), especially if it is not stored correctly when the changes will be larger than they would be in well stored beans. This is dependent on the client’s management of the packet, and not the “roasted on” date.

    If a client wishes to buy a packet of beans with the shortest possible roasted on date, just ask, and a well trained shop assistant should be in a position to dispense beans from whatever stock was roasted yesterday….which will by necessity be in a separate stock location to that which is ready for sale now. One expects that the client knows what to expect from beans like that.

    “…I take it from your defensive and highly-edited reply that you're associated with one of these larger roasters. I have no idea what weight to place on those kinds of awards, and prefer to make my own taste judgements as I sample the market….”


    I no longer work in a roastery however I am a professional coffee roaster, equipment importer and business owner with many years experience, and I still consult. The awards are seriously good, judged by professional industry peers.

    However, your final comment “prefer to make my own taste judgements as I sample the market….” is precisely what I was getting at, regardless of the academics surrounding whether dates, codes or whatever are placed on a packet or not.

    Additionally, here is a hypothetical. Do you prefer a professional roaster that runs a good ship and purveys good product, who chooses not to place dates on its packets, or another roaster that may be deliberately placing dates on packets to suit its own ends. How does anyone know when a date is legit OR if it has been manipulated to suit the stock levels at any particular time? Food for thought. Someone above wrote that those that dont place dates are being delibertately deceiving. Are those that do place dates always entirely honest?

    Lastly, the short answer to your question is: If you are concerned by how long a packet of beans will remain at optimum after it was purchased, please buy only the smallest possible quantity and buy often. Say weekly. Don’t buy a kilo at a time if you only use 250 grams a week, because that defeats the purpose of buying “fresh”. And of course, clients that buy way more than they have capacity to use, are actually defeating the idea of buying fresh coffee, through their own management of the product. This should not be blamed on roasting businesses that choose not to place dates on their packets, because it is a client management issue of the product. And of course, buying packets with a date on wont stop the staling process where someone buys too much for their needs…

    Hope this helps.

    Leave a comment:


  • gunda
    replied
    I can appreciate the different business environment that a larger roaster faces compared to a smaller one. I suspect that larger ones are also supplying a lot of their beans to cafés, who go through enough coffee that roast date doesn't really matter as long as it's within say 4 weeks. I was at a venue tonight that uses beans from one of the non-dated roasters mentioned above, and I asked about the coffee and got a rave response from the owner, so clearly the beans are well regarded in that high-volume environment.

    But in my case, it affects how much I buy. I also want a little confidence that I can don't have to gulp it all down asap. And what I have found a little uncomfortable is that on the few occasions when I have tried to ask about roast date, I've found it hard to get an answer. Perhaps I need to keep trying.

    I take it from your defensive and highly-edited reply that you're associated with one of these larger roasters. I have no idea what weight to place on those kinds of awards, and prefer to make my own taste judgements as I sample the market.

    Leave a comment:


  • TOK
    replied
    Originally posted by gunda View Post
    ...
    My question is: is not putting a roast date on a packet standard practice?
    ...Thanks.
    AFAIK there is no standard practice and individuals businesses are at liberty to do whatever they feel is the right thing, based on sound business decisions, for themselves.

    On the other hand clients are at liberty to buy whatever they like from wherever, for whatever reason. We all do this whether its coffee or anything else.

    I have professionally cupped coffee from various roasters in Canberra and can say, from the perspective of this topic, that there are roasters that may well be placing roasted on dates on their packets, but the coffee that has been bought and cupped from time to time was well (WELL) below standard. A roasted on date is not a guarantee of a good product that cups well. On the other hand one of the roasters mentioned above that uses a code system on its packets instead of a roast date, won 9 medals at the Hobart Fine Food Show a few weeks ago for blends and SO's that it sells over the counter to its clients.

    So the topic really isnt as simple as it may seem, and I hope that helps.
    Last edited by TOK; 3 September 2014, 01:41 AM. Reason: still awake

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  • gunda
    replied
    All valid points.

    Leave a comment:

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