Second hand machine problems.

[Yelta]

Seems to me there has been a marked trend of late for people to buy (bargain) second hand machines, find there is a problem, join Coffee Snobs and look for help, nothing wrong with seeking this, however most of the seekers have a number of common attributes.

Even though they would have us believe otherwise, they know little about the workings of espresso machines and even less about coffee, however would have us believe the exact opposite.

Most seem to be able to dismantle their pride and joy to the point of confusion, exposing electrics, breaking off the odd screw or bolt and attempts at descaling with citric acid, baking soda, vinegar or something else they think may work, at this point the plumbing is clogged with scale and rubbish and nothing seems to work soooo, we join CS, plead our case telling everyone who is prepared to listen they know what they are doing, but (this is an unusual problem that has me completely stumped) then the same problem solving we have seen so many times begins all over again.

It even seems the people attempting to help are those with little experience, most of the older more knowledgeable members seem to be pretty jaded with the process now.

Perhaps there is room for another specific forum in Equipment (Second hand machine help) or something similar.

A cynical viewpoint? perhaps, but nonetheless, in my opinion, valid.

[Pete39]

I see it differently. I see a public, on-line forum where people who are interested in coffee have a place to share opinions, ask questions, learn, etc. I see a history of "newbies" having a go, getting stuck, trying to search (hopefully) the rather large amount of info available on line, and asking questions. People can choose to answer or ignore. The best clubs and societies I have been involved with are always happy to help new-comers, even though their questions have often been asked many, many times before. But I think part of being a member of such groups is being willing to share knowledge when possible, and realize that no-body knows it all and there is always more to learn and discover. I think to make good coffee (especially espresso) requires good coffee, good knowledge applied correctly and good gear. It would make no sense to me to separate two of the four Ms.

[sprezzatura]

I sub-contract for a company that does domestic machines (Jura; Saeco; Delonghi; Sunbeam). Some of the repairs are ridiculously easy and, if out of warranty, impressively expensive. I like to assist home DIY 'ers. I've seen some exceedingly poor work performed. I have an electrical license and chiefly work on prosumer and single-boiler commercial machines. A forum for second hand machine help sounds great.

[TOK]

Warning - warning - warning....long post.

Another philosophical discussion, and thinking laterally....

As I understand it from your response, you derive your income from equipment repair, but are happy to help people to do DIY.

I guess it depends on how far you are willing to go with giving your hard earned, hard learned technical info to the public (the training and expertise that your employer has paid for and put into your training), but in general terms, I think it's tough to learn that people in the repair industry are in a general sense happy to give their training, knowledge and expertise away for nothing.

If repairs are expensive, its because it costs money to keep a repair business running. not to mention that anyone's definition of what constitutes "expensive" will vary, especially when those individuals are not necessarily totally privvy to all the info regarding the cost of running a business.

An easy example comes to mind. An Under Cup Washer / group seal costs X dollars for a repairer to buy, but he may choose to sell it for say, 3 times X because the time taken to fit the thing is so short that it does not effectively cover the ON cost of the person being employed to fit the thing Or where some clients constantly demand that repairs be done for discounted rates or for nothing (many cafes)...then something has to give somewhere...

Etc etc etc.

People that are not running a repair business, generally don't have an understanding of what "cost" is all about.

Its a bigger topic than can be discussed here, and I think this will probably do.

I sincerely hope therefore, that in the context of your short reply above, that you are not "biting the hand that feeds you".....

As an aside, you may find the following interesting. I went to the dentist yesterday for my 6 monthly clean.

I was in the chair for 30 minutes.

I was charged $100.00 for a “Periodic Oram Examination”;
$ 170.00 cleaning fee (“Removal of Calculus First Visit” despite that I am a long term regular client) AND

$285.00 for an “Adhesive Restoration” (a partial repair to an existing filling found to be cracked in the "oral examination").

TOTAL $555.00, and in the chair 30 minutes TOTAL.

Reimbursed from medical benefits fund......$145.60 (meaning the dentist is miles ahead of whatever the scheduled fees are...and I'm not saying the scheduled fees are necessarily fair for the dentist).

The fees were charged for works done concurrently in the one half hour period, and the "removal of calculus" was rushed and not completed per usual standard in order to rush the filling repair into the same consultation.

Yet.....when the dentist comes to your business to buy a new machine, he will ask you:
“what's my price”, advise he can get the thing for $50.00 less from some internet vendor in another city, and
will screw you for everything he can take.

And when he eventually brings it in for repair, he will hit the roof over your charges.

So you can probably see why I might occasionally get touchy about people in the industry trying to make it easy for clients to NOT have to bring their equipment in for repair ! I dont see too many other professionals rushing to give their expertise AND INCOME away for nix.

Oh and by the way I am looking for another dentist, I think this one's had more than a fair run from me over the years.

[Erimus]

A cynical viewpoint? perhaps, but nonetheless, in my opinion, valid.

You love being didactic

[Yelta]

You love being didactic

Well at least I ain't afraid to offer an opinion.

[TOK]

...look it up...?

[TC]

A potential hornets nest- no doubt.

My opinion for what it's worth. In general I'm happy to help where I can. What I do dislike are people who openly take advantage.

Example- design company local to us requires assistance in the design for an aspect of a cafe. "Come to us and consult".

"Sure thing. There will be a charge though".

"No problem".

Haven't paid their account....

I get caught in what become free consults over the phone many, many times per week. People seem to have an expectation that 30 min or an hour of your time comes for nothing. Take what you need and then disappear...

Perhaps if you require a professional service to assist to save some folding, you should be prepared to pay a little. It's all about fairness

[blend52]

descaling a espresso boiler or fixing a leak is something i may attempt .
...DIY dental descaling or filling teeth is something best left to others !

[TOK]

.......In general I'm happy to help where I can. What I do dislike are people who openly take advantage.

..............I get caught in what become free consults over the phone many, many times per week. People seem to have an expectation that 30 min or an hour of your time comes for nothing. Take what you need and then disappear...

geez mate my mistake I thought you were running a free consultation company .....I know we* are (* = the biz I still own but dont manage or work in...).

Its not just about half an hour on the phone....it goes well beyond that with people making appointments with you to go out to their premises to consult, with the expectation of being given the work...and then you know what happens when they give your ideas to someone else.

That's how coffee and equipment roasters/vendors are treated.

[TOK]

descaling a espresso boiler or fixing a leak is something i may attempt .
...DIY dental descaling or filling teeth is something best left to others !

Look at this way blend.....$555.00 is all the cost of labour / expertise. If you count say, $20.00 for some filling material, that means the consultationn was done at an hourly rate of $1090.00 per hour.

They are allowed to do that by "the system". Pro equipment repairers are by comparo worth very little...

[Pete39]

A LOT more costs in running a dental business than just labour / expertise. And keeping expertise is expensive in itself.

They are "allowed" to do that because that is what the market is prepared to pay. You can charge what you want for your services too.

[TOK]

Quote: "......A LOT more costs in running a dental business than just labour / expertise. And keeping expertise is expensive in itself...."

Thankyou that is the right observation...not all that different to running a repair biz with service techs, premises, all workshop tools infrastructure etc and vehicles....

[Erimus]

A LOT more costs in running a dental business than just labour / expertise. And keeping expertise is expensive in itself.

They are "allowed" to do that because that is what the market is prepared to pay. You can charge what you want for your services too.

Well not quite.
It's what the health plan and insurance companies are prepared to pay, which is overpriced too imho. Meanwhile average Joe that is not afforded health benefits at work or cannot afford private coverage is held to ransom in an overpriced industry and consequently walks around with toothless smiles.

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Oh and by the way I am looking for another dentist, I think this one's had more than a fair run from me over the years.

This 'dentist' wasn't located in Fyshwick were they? They might have charged you for services you didn't know were on offer?