This is more difficult than i thought

[brianleon]

Hello to all
the silvia came today edit- non cs supplier name removed by mods- please read the posting rules and do not promote non-sponsors  > and with no grinder i went up to starbucks and got 500 gram of freshly ground coffe  set as to there rancilio machines as a start point
Well i have tried a few things mainly tamping pressure but my coffe has no crema and untill i get a grinder i am stumped as to what to do
the left overs are nice and solid with a small mark in the centre(double shots) and the drink is just dark liquid after about 25 seconds
So no crema as yet and i dont want to talk about my steamed milk at all
  cheers     brian

[TC]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

So, grasshopper, there is your lesson....Your CS sponsors could have most likely gone very close to, or been able to match the deal and you would have got support and most probably a freebie lesson as well...

As we all say, rule #1- buy a good grinder....

[Lovey]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

Gday Brian,
youll find that until you get hold of a grinder, and some fresh beans (not charbucks btw) youll be dissapointed with the results.
The crema is mainly a result of bean freshness, and the beans youre using are alomst certainly not fresh.
Buy some coffee from one of the numerous sponsors that do coffee, you can specify pre-ground if you like, and youll see the difference.
Yes it takes a bit of effort, but everything in life that is worthwile does.
Keep at it, and dont forget to ask a question if you need help. Theres no such thing as a stupid quesion.

EDIT - Holy smoking fingers, geez youre a quick typist Chris

[robusto]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

Its darn near impossible for a Silvia not to produce crema. So your situation Brian speaks volume about the nature of coffee Star***** has provided.

If the grounds werent already stale... they would have been by the time you got home!

-Robusto

[brianleon]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

sorry didnt mean to promote a non sponser i should of said my silvia came in 3 days how good is that
i will talk about my steamed milk now

its hot and noisy and this realy is harder than i thought

no more stale beans for me i will grow my own one day
reminds me about whan i was a tree hugging hippe and i used to grow this( oops better not go there i guess)

cheers brian

[Dennis]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

hey brianleon, I sympathise with you re naming a non-sponsor. The rules that are referred to are not so very easy to find!

Ive heard and read that the Silvia take some time to master, however all reports from both owners and what Ive read state that as long as you look after your new machine, we will give you many, many years of hapiness and eventually, coffee nirvana may be yours too!

I know Viviane has a Silvia and is very helpful. If you see her on-line maybe you could get some tips from her, and Im sure others will chip in too.

All the best with your coffee adventure - it takes soem patience but it sure is worth it!

[MattG]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

No point trying to diagnose your espresso problems until you get a grinder. A few minutes after grinding the coffee will be stale.

[Dennis]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

in the meantime though you can learn how to texturise milk beautifully and do a green tea rosetta like the coffee kid

[Curmudgeon]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

Apologies to all in advance but it is simply wrong with a capital W to tell people here that the "no crema" issue means or is because you were sold stale coffee.

Brian, you may or may not have been sold stale coffee and whether this is the case or not will not influence the situation with crema to such an extent that you dont get any. Anyone that knows what theyre doing can still get a crema with grinds made from stale beans. It may be yellow (indicating under extraction due to reduced oil content) instead of tan/gold coloured, and will be less substantial, but there will still be a crema.  (Oh, and of course the brew will be crap but thats not the issue here).

Advice regarding importance of getting a grinder is good as its more likely your problem is related to incorrect grind, & relationship between it, your dose and tamp, than staleness of the beans that char schmucks ground up for you.

And I am not sticking up for char schmucks, I just believe in "truth in posting".

Hope this helps.

[brianleon]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

Thanks  Curmudgeon   You said  It may be yellow (indicating under extraction due to reduced oil content) instead of tan/gold coloured, and will be less substantial, but there will still be a crema.  (Oh, and of course the brew will be crap but thats not the issue here).

Yes you have nailed it that is what i am getting exactly and i wont go on  about it as i need a grinder and some fresh beans

I just thought i could get by with a good machine for a few weeks without a grinder .

thanks all
                         cheers
                                   brian

[Thundergod]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

brian its the other way around of course as you now realise.
You could get by for a few weeks with a good grinder until you you got a machine.

Curnudgeon would you agree that stale beans would be the major part of brains problem?

I agree that there would be other factors such as grind.
I myself pulled an shot today with little crema. From memory it ran too fast and a lot of bloding made it into the cup before I stopped it.

People tend to see the big problems first (naturally) and also here tend to not overwhelm someone with too many variables to contend with.

I think thats where the others were coming from.

[JavaB]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

Whilst you might get a little crema like extract from old beans, I wouldnt really call it crema in the true sense of the word.

After about 3 weeks the coffee oils are starting to go rancid.... the carbon dioxide in the bean mass is slowly diffusing out and being replaced by air..... both totally normal processes....

And since its a combination of the coffee oils and the carbon dioxide which, under pressure, generate the crema (unless you are using "crema enhancing :P" baskets.... then the ingredients for the crema are depleted... the older the coffee the more this is the case.

Anyone who roasts their own coffee will know the difference... week old coffee will produce so much real crema it is unbelievable..... even a couple of weeks old it still produces an amazing amount.....

And I know its not just the supermarkets who sell stale coffee (I know of one "quality" roaster who, via their retailers, are selling coffee up to a year old....) :-/

If a roaster doesnt put a roasted date (not a worthless "best by date") on their packs of beans - you can almost guarantee they are stale....

Whilst stale coffee beans arent the only cause of no crema or very poor crema.... it sure is real hard to get any volume of crema from them (even ignoring the colour and the taste)...

[Curmudgeon]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

All,

Brain wrote "my coffe has no crema.......the drink is just dark liquid after about 25 seconds........So no crema as yet"

As such the response I made is entirely correct based on the information given.

My understanding of what Brian wrote after that, is that there actually IS a crema but not what he expected.

That changes the ball park but...is still covered by some of the things I have written in the first reply.

I will have to disagree again however with all the additional info from others about how coffee stales, the time periods involved, where you buy beans. The information may well be correct from a purely technical aspect, but in real life any one of us that cant get a crema on a coffee made with even 2 month (8 week) old beans, doesnt know enough about espresso making and actually needs to take a class. Remember, the original topic relates simply to absence of crema, nothing else. Therefore we need to get to the point which is...if there is NO crema, it has nothing to do with freshness/staleness of product, but something else.

My point: some of the discussions here I think have the effect of turning those that read this stuff into extremely anal and extremely difficult clients, placing demands on their suppliers that cross the line and become "unreasonable", when purchasing their beans. Too many details, details. Or to put it another way....turning people with little knowledge into the clients from hell.

Roasted dates are for "consumers" who demand their "rights". Most of these consumers dont know anything about coffee...its about their right to have tha date on the packet, not whether the product is any good.

The coffee whether dated or not, is either good or fresh. or it is not. And maybe it is fresh, but it is not good. What do we do then, demand a stamp of "quality"?  You either "trust" the supplier, or you go elsewhere.

So to get back to the topic:
NO crema means baristas technique needs to be addressed;
Thin yellow crema most probably means stale beans, BUT could also be related to baristas knowledge base & technique or a mix of the two.

The rest is nothing more than confusing padding.

[TC]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

I can get crema with potting mix and a pressurised portafilter....wouldnt drink the stuff though : ;D

[Dennis]

Re: This is more difficult than i thought

My partner drinks decaf, and usually only has the opportunity to have some that I have roasted on weekends.

Using the same machine, the same technique, the same roasted beans, and the same grind, I can attest to the fact that up until 2 weeks after roast, there is always plenty of crema. From there on in crema production goes downhill quickly.

And it does taste different too - Sue comments when the coffee is getting on, that it doesnt taste as lively....as opposed to when Ive made a fresh batch and tend to get more compliments.

And yes, Ive done courses.