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  • #16
    Re: This is more difficult than i thought

    Originally posted by Curmudgeon link=1176531432/0#12 date=1176591786
    Brain wrote "my coffe has no crema.......the drink is just dark liquid after about 25 seconds........So no crema as yet"

    As such the response I made is entirely correct based on the information given.
    Sooo,

    Everyone else is wrong and youre absolutely and unequivocally correct :-?, have I got that right?

    Mal.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: This is more difficult than i thought

      Curmudgeon Ive read all of your previous posts and dont see any reference to your experience with espresso equipment.

      You do mention a few times that your writings are merely a personal opinion and I read that as you not wanting to be seen as a know-it-all. Fair enough.

      However it is apparent from your posts that you know a lot and I expect its either from professional experience or an awful lot of personal passion on the subject.

      So Id like to know more about where that experience comes from so as to judge for myself what your opinion is worth.

      Off topic myself now.

      Originally posted by Curmudgeon link=1176531432/0#12 date=1176591786
      My point: some of the discussions here I think have the effect of turning those that read this stuff into extremely anal and extremely difficult clients, placing demands on their suppliers that cross the line and become "unreasonable", when purchasing their beans. Too many details, details. Or to put it another way....turning people with little knowledge into the clients from hell.

      Roasted dates are for "consumers" who demand their "rights". Most of these consumers dont know anything about coffee...its about their right to have tha date on the packet, not whether the product is any good.

      The coffee whether dated or not, is either good or fresh. or it is not. And maybe it is fresh, but it is not good. What do we do then, demand a stamp of "quality"? You either "trust" the supplier, or you go elsewhere.
      This part of your last post seems to be some sort of personal bugbear and you admitted it was off topic.

      Maybe you should express whatever it is that bothers you about "customers from hell" in a new thread.

      My two cents worth on dates is that if theres nothing to hide they should be there.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: This is more difficult than i thought

        hi all my 1st post, may as well weigh in with both feet

        I have bought coffee from 2 reputable suppliers, on a sponsor, one not

        both had a number stamped on them that might mean something to them but not to me

        one is always very nice, the other I am not to sure on

        what does the date tell us? look at all the roasting and cupping notes for the different beans around here, some need a week before being at their best, some are well and truly past it by then so if you were to pick a blend up from whoever and looked at a date on it are you instantly able to tell where in its life cycle its at without tasting it?

        maybe better advice would be if it isnt being roasted in house its probably not going to be fresh?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: This is more difficult than i thought

          Welcome to Coffee Snobs Sunbeamer.

          The blend I buy the most from a professional roaster has the roasted date on it and I prefer to drink it in the second week from roasting.
          However most other customers it seems prefer it fresher and occasionally Ive been given week old beans because no one else will buy them (good for me).

          The point is it the customers choice.
          Giving them the roasting date allows them to choose.

          I had to ask the roast date when I bought from a well known highly respected place somewhere in Sydney.
          I shouldnt have to ask.

          If I do have to ask then Ill also want to know when its at its best.

          Then if crema is a big issue for me because I drink espressos I know what to expect.
          Personally I drink mostly flat whites so it doesnt worry me as much.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: This is more difficult than i thought

            hi all--- i think i will start a new topic as my crema or lack of it has started to get people going anal whatever that means
            Curmudgeon thanks for trying to help out i guess i wasnt very clear but i realy thought the 1 mm of yellow couldnt be crema anyway

            it seems to me that my beans are crap because i have varied tamp varied ammount and the resuls is no crema(1mm of yellow i mean)
            glad to of created some light banter at least

            got a bit of a headache could it be too much crap coffe maybe
            cheers
            brian not brain
            its liza wit a z not lisa with an s cause liza with a z says zzz not s etc etc etc

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: This is more difficult than i thought

              All,

              Im glad my posts have sparked some thought provoking comment.

              Thundergod, you are very perceptive and I am a very private person. Thankyou for your comment. With regard to the paraphrase of my post, I had thought very seriously about placing that in a separate topic, then thought "what the hell" and left it here as it would serve no purpose to put it somewhere else where the result would be for the discussion to go aimlessly around in circles. In here, it is tangential but.........relevant to my opinion of what I have seen in the discussion.

              Dennis, you got it as far as decaff goes, but I reckon regular coffee lasts a lot longer than decaff in terms of ability to get crema and again, the topic wasnt on flavour just crema.

              Mal, I am sorry you seem to have been upset by my comment but would not retract as the comment is in my opinion, absolutely correct, black and white, no question. Take a look at the meaning of my internet name, I simply call a spade a spade with no intetion to make any of it personal.

              2mcm, thanks for the humour, dont know about anyone else but I thought it was great.

              Sunbeamer, congrats on making your first post, I lurked for a long time before dipping my toes just recently. Thing is its a public forum and participants have to able to take as good as they can give (or give as good as others dish out) but that shouldnt stop people from participating and learning from others!

              I thought the little I wrote on my opinion of "dating" was self explanatory. Consumers apparently seldom think about the ramifications for those on the other side of the counter. Think about it, & its not about "having something to hide". This is why you will find that some companies use code numbers that the consumers dont understand. The code numbers give the company valuable information about the batch of the coffee packaged, without "alarming" the consumer who has to make a judgment based on real quality and that is the character/flavour of the coffee rather than what they saw written on the packet. If you were running a coffee company, how would you "attack" the notion of dating packets? Its just an open question.

              Goodnight to all.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                Curmudgeon, Im glad your posts have sparked some thought provoking comment too!

                Its nice to hear a different point of view!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                  Originally posted by Curmudgeon link=1176531432/15#20 date=1176630274
                  All,

                  Im glad my posts have sparked some thought provoking comment.

                  Thundergod, you are very perceptive and I am a very private person. Thankyou for your comment. With regard to the paraphrase of my post, I had thought very seriously about placing that in a separate topic, then thought "what the hell" and left it here as it would serve no purpose to put it somewhere else where the result would be for the discussion to go aimlessly around in circles. In here, it is tangential but.........relevant to my opinion of what I have seen in the discussion.

                  Dennis, you got it as far as decaff goes, but I reckon regular coffee lasts a lot longer than decaff in terms of ability to get crema and again, the topic wasnt on flavour just crema.

                  Mal, I am sorry you seem to have been upset by my comment but would not retract as the comment is in my opinion, absolutely correct, black and white, no question. Take a look at the meaning of my internet name, I simply call a spade a spade with no intetion to make any of it personal.

                  2mcm, thanks for the humour, dont know about anyone else but I thought it was great.

                  Sunbeamer, congrats on making your first post, I lurked for a long time before dipping my toes just recently. Thing is its a public forum and participants have to able to take as good as they can give (or give as good as others dish out)  but that shouldnt stop people from participating and learning from others!

                  I thought the little I wrote on my opinion of "dating" was self explanatory. Consumers apparently seldom think about the ramifications for those on the other side of the counter. Think about it, & its not about "having something to hide". This is why you will find that some companies use code numbers that the consumers dont understand. The code numbers give the company valuable information about the batch of the coffee packaged, without "alarming" the consumer who has to make a judgment based on real quality and that is the character/flavour of the coffee rather than what they saw written on the packet. If you were running a coffee company, how would you "attack" the notion of dating packets? Its just an open question.

                  Goodnight to all.
                  Re the Mal section

                  Sorry, but calling a spade a spade can be a difficult one. None of us speaks entirely from facts- there is always a strong element of opinion, and personally I think we are never entirely free from mixed motives.

                  I suspect that calling a spade a spade is often the refuge of people who enjoy the thrill of not having to take other peoples feelings into account. It is often the hallmark of the worst sort of chatrooms- keyboard kommandos.

                  Just be careful that calling a spade a spade isnt an excuse for arrogance.
                  Brett

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                    twas my point entirely Brett..... Arrogance is not a trait that I, and a lot of others respond to very well. If you have to resort to a position that so-called, calls a spade a spade, and doesnt allow room for the opinions and experiences of others to be considered, then I would rather you keep your spades in the tool-shed where they belong....

                    Cheers,
                    Mal.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                      Hi,

                      As a newbie home roaster, I am the first to admit that there is a lot I dont know (that is why I come to this site!), but I can definitely tell stale coffee from fresh. I can also tell a difference in the crema on my Silvia if the coffee is stale or fresh. Stale beans may still make a thin line of crema, but it is tan, not that beautiful caramel colour that fresh beans provide.

                      I also found it frustrating that some roasters dont put "date roasted" on their product. Ive bought coffee beans from roasters only to have it arrive looking kind of glossy and oily and tasting pretty bad. That is why I bought my gene cafe and although I still have a long way to go, I love the fact that I know my coffee beans are very fresh!

                      If I had my own roasting company, I would definitely put a roast date on all my beans. I cant see a negative to this approach, other than the roaster having to throw away old stale beans, rather than trying to pass them onto a unsuspecting customer. Even if people have individual tastes, ie some like to wait 1 week into a certain roast, other people 4 days, I think it is important to give the customer the right information and let them decide whether to buy or not.

                      p.s. I dont really "get" your name, "C... U...R Mud?". Dont take yourself so seriously - believe it or not, there may be people on this forum that know more about coffee than you do!
                      Just my 2 cents, Mary

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                        Originally posted by MaryP link=1176531432/15#24 date=1176633487
                        p.s. I dont really "get" your name, "C... U...R Mud?". Dont take yourself so seriously - believe it or not, there may be people on this forum that know more about coffee than you do!
                        Just my 2 cents, Mary
                        Mary

                        Curmudgeon is "a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man"..... :

                        I agree 100%.... the customers deserve truth in labelling (on all products).... and that includes date information. In some cases that is an "expiry date", others in a "best by date" and for items where different people perceive the life of a product differently - (like for roasted beans) then a "processed date" (or in this case - a roasted date)....

                        The customers who dont care (probably most) wont bother checking - but for those of us who do care (and I can definitely tell the difference) we can exercise our right to chose if the date is acceptable - and if not we can vote with our feet.

                        Java "old - but neither crusty nor ill-tempered" B

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                          Let me assure you all there was absolutely no intention to be arrogant in the manner of delivery of my comment and I am quite willing to remove the offending passage if required.

                          I will try in future to write all my posts as nicely as possible, atleast as nicely as the other people that write all the wrong information on topic but do it nicely!

                          The open question I posed in the final paragraph of my last post was quite serious but so far I havent seen any comment that might make it a win / win for both sides of the counter.

                          Good night again to all.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                            Originally posted by Curmudgeon link=1176531432/15#26 date=1176635104

                            The open question I posed in the final paragraph of my last post was quite serious but so far I havent seen any comment that might make it a win / win for both sides of the counter.

                            Good night again to all.
                            Curmudgeon,

                            I thought I answered it in my post above yours.... In the interest of both parties - Id put the "roasted date" on the bag - just like one of the major roasters does here in WA - and supplies them to supermarkets with " Roasted on DD.MM.YYYY" on the label clear for all to see.....

                            Now if they can do it (and they sell from their roastery with these labels on as well)... they havent been bankrupted, their reputation hasnt gone down the toilet - their sales are very good (and they have a very good reputation amongst we "Snobs" and their product is used exclusively by arguably the best cafes here in Perth.. it must work.

                            This roastery ships Australia wide as well - and there are other roasteries who also label their product this way... and it keeps the customers happy (well those who care about roasted date).... why the resistance???

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                              I also thought Id answered it in saying my roaster supplies a roasted date on all their bags.
                              I buy there weekly.

                              But I will answer that if I "were running a coffee company" as you asked, I would put a roasted date AND a best before date.

                              I know what my roaster thinks about a best before date as we sit down and she usually makes me a coffee and we chat for a while each week before I run out of time and have to complete my purchase and leave.
                              I am happy enough to push into another week with the beans, but thats my choice as a fully informed customer.

                              These days its easy enough to put up all the information on the coffee company website.
                              Things like best by periods, optimum storage options etc.

                              So thats how Id "attack" it.

                              P.S. Curmudgeon I looked up your username as soon as I saw it as I wanted to double check what I thought it meant.
                              I was right and I was and am amused.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: This is more difficult than i thought

                                Thanks for your reply JavaB but you are simply stating what you would do or what someone else is doing, and while its obvious to see why an educated consumer would like the idea, no one has given us  good reason why the roaster might like the idea.

                                Most roasters dont date packets in that way and if you try and look from their side of the coin you might see why they might be resistant to the idea.

                                For example, a roasted date can work against a roaster in supermarket sales, in 2 ways:
                                a) educated consumers wont buy anything past a certain date according to their personal perception about what they think constututes fresh or stale product and
                                b) supermarket staff will pull stock that has gone past a certain date and send it back for credit or replacement.

                                Supermarketeers dont pull stock that has gone past date and throw it away at their resposibility & expense, they pull it and force the issue of credit with their supplier...no care no responsibility on their part.

                                In cafes it is common enough that stock doesnt get rotated and they do the same as the supermarket, when they find something they think is "too old" they send it back to be exchanged (this is the reasoning behind the codes on packets that only make sense to the roaster).

                                And lastly, at the roaster door you get consumers that wont buy product if they think the coffee they just enquired about is "older" than it should be.

                                How would you present to a roaster, the case that dating will help his business rather than turn it into a management nightmare? Particularly in cases where the roaster has grown past the smallest of sizes and had to develop economies of scale to suit the growth?

                                The question is legit.

                                Lastly, if all I have done is make people aware there are 2 sides to this story, then I am happy enough.

                                Mary I dont bugger up your name, why are you disrespecting mine, and I didnt make any unkind or personal observations about you so why did you make one about me?

                                Thundergod, Im glad you are amused, that was the point when I chose it!

                                Comment

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