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  • Is a Resin Filter Good Enough to Prevent Scale?

    Hi,

    I got onto the end of a recent post about descaling a dual boiler Expobar machine, but didn't get any reply to the following:

    It seems that the preferred filtered/descaled water supply is the Brita C150 system, but this costs about $400 + plumbing if you are not a good diy person.

    I note that the resin filters supplied with the Expobar can be bought for $9.00 each and will last 3 months.

    If the resin filters are effective one could buy 10 years supply of resin filters for the cost of the C 150.

    So: Do the resin filters descale the water supply adequately?

  • #2
    You can get an Everpure system that filters, softens and improves taste for about $100

    Add $20.00 for 1/2" braided hose from Bunnings and one 3/8" to 1/2" BSB male fittings; one 3/8" to 3/8" male fitting. Might need a 3.5bar pressure reducer - $35.00 - $65.00 and a T if you use cold water mains supplied to your sink faucet/mixer.

    So - $200.00 maybe?

    Any resin system will increase the longevity of your machine. I just refurbished a MegaCrem Compact and scale had completely plugged the hot water tap at the boiler fitting (low on the end of the boiler).

    Whatever system you use change often and do a water hardness test if possible before so you have an idea how aggressively you need to combat mineral precipitation.

    Cheers!

    Comment


    • #3
      Addendum: if you aren't using mains supply and have an Office or Leva/Minore then yes - the office resin filters work great. Use filtered water (particulate filter in a jug like a Brita).

      Comment


      • #4
        A Brita C150 and bayonet is nothing like $400. It's more like $200.

        Add a PLV/isolation valves/ceramic tap to any filter system and the price will increase. Apples with apples guys

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rmchenry View Post
          Hi,.....I note that the (mini) resin filters can be bought for $9.00 each and will last 3 months.

          ....... Do the resin filters descale the water supply adequately?
          Beware .......this is a Yes, and No scenario.....

          Yes, Minni Resin filters DO soften water adequately IF THEY ARE TREATED / RECHARGED ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATION.

          However most people dont (TREAT / RECHARGE ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATION).

          From memory, a miniature resin water softener/filter is good for about 30 litres, after which its capacity to soften the water passing through has been spent. From that point on, until the softener is *recharged* or *depurated*, it can nolonger soften water (because its capacity to do is already saturated), however it will continue to filter particles.

          You then "recharge"' or "depurate" the softener and WHALLA...its good for another "30 litres" of water softening.

          You could get pickie and mention that the "rated" capacity to soften (30 litres) actually depends on the hardness factor of the water in any particuler location and you would be correct, but you have to pick an arbitrary figure to start from, and 30 litres is for crappy hard Italian water so should be perfectly good for *most* areas on good potable tap water in Oz....

          Note, the life expectancy of the softener between recharges is not time depndent (eg not "3 months")...it is volume dependent on the amount of water you are putting through it eg 30 litres....so the time taken between recharges is different for each individual and how much they use their machine.

          As an example, in my own use at home, I measured that on average I put about 30 litres through my BFC Splendor machine in about 3 weeks. This is a far cry from *3 months*, and the mini resin softener/filter supplied with the machine should be recharged (or replaced) every 3 weeks to keep it operating / softening the water as it should.

          The scenario is not that the mini resin filters cant do a good job because they can....it's that most average joes never recharge/depurate them and probably never took notice of it in the instructions in the first place.

          For the sake of picking a convenient arbitrary interval, lets say these things should be recharged or replaced monthly. People that cant be bothered, should look for another way of providing appropriately conditioned water to their machine or suffer the consequences of scale build up over time.

          Further:
          there will be any number of permutations and combinations in between, but if you can buy a mini resin filter for $9.00 (bargain basement price) as a walk in client that is one thing, but if you buy one each month and have it delivered by express post, that will add about another $10.00, so that makes the actual cost of replacement $19.00 per month (theoretically), if you cant be bothered doing a recharge. That means the cost of properly conditioning your coffee machine water is about $230.00 annually if doing it that way. A far cry from budgeting for a *9.00 filter every 3 months*.

          It doesnt matter which way you do it, as long as you do...

          Hope that helps.

          Note: the larger the resin filter, the longer it will last between recharges but the theory is exactly the same in terms of the resin eventually becoming saturated and needing to be recharged.
          Last edited by TOK; 3 November 2014, 08:52 AM. Reason: make betterer

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TOK View Post
            Beware .......this is a Yes, and No scenario.....

            Yes, Minni Resin filters DO soften water adequately IF THEY ARE TREATED / RECHARGED ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATION.

            However most people dont (TREAT / RECHARGE ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATION).

            From memory, a miniature resin water softener/filter is good for about 30 litres, after which its capacity to soften the water passing through has been spent. From that point on, until the softener is *recharged* or *depurated*, it can nolonger soften water (because its capacity to do is already saturated), however it will continue to filter particles.

            You then "recharge"' or "depurate" the softener and WHALLA...its good for another "30 litres" of water softening.

            You could get pickie and mention that the "rated" capacity to soften (30 litres) actually depends on the hardness factor of the water in any particuler location and you would be correct, but you have to pick an arbitrary figure to start from, and 30 litres is for crappy hard Italian water so should be perfectly good for *most* areas on good potable tap water in Oz....

            Note, the life expectancy of the softener between recharges is not time depndent (eg not "3 months")...it is volume dependent on the amount of water you are putting through it eg 30 litres....so the time taken between recharges is different for each individual and how much they use their machine.

            As an example, in my own use at home, I measured that on average I put about 30 litres through my BFC Splendor machine in about 3 weeks. This is a far cry from *3 months*, and the mini resin softener/filter supplied with the machine should be recharged (or replaced) every 3 weeks to keep it operating / softening the water as it should.

            The scenario is not that the mini resin filters cant do a good job because they can....it's that most average joes never recharge/depurate them and probably never took notice of it in the instructions in the first place.

            For the sake of picking a convenient arbitrary interval, lets say these things should be recharged or replaced monthly. People that cant be bothered, should look for another way of providing appropriately conditioned water to their machine or suffer the consequences of scale build up over time.

            Further:
            there will be any number of permutations and combinations in between, but if you can buy a mini resin filter for $9.00 (bargain basement price) as a walk in client that is one thing, but if you buy one each month and have it delivered by express post, that will add about another $10.00, so that makes the actual cost of replacement $19.00 per month (theoretically), if you cant be bothered doing a recharge. That means the cost of properly conditioning your coffee machine water is about $230.00 annually if doing it that way. A far cry from budgeting for a *9.00 filter every 3 months*.

            It doesnt matter which way you do it, as long as you do...

            Hope that helps.

            Note: the larger the resin filter, the longer it will last between recharges but the theory is exactly the same in terms of the resin eventually becoming saturated and needing to be recharged.
            Good and salient point WRT volume as opposed to time!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
              A Brita C150 and bayonet is nothing like $400. It's more like $200.

              Add a PLV/isolation valves/ceramic tap to any filter system and the price will increase. Apples with apples guys
              $399 here: C150 Coffee Machine Water Filter Kit - Brita :: COFFEE & ICE FILTERS :: WATER...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rmchenry View Post
                Hi,
                It seems that the preferred filtered/descaled water supply is the Brita C150 system
                Perhaps by those who sell it?

                As for the expobar unit you mentioned, if you can buy them at that price it may be worth trying one to see how well and for how long it works, but you'll need hardness test kit(s) if you want to measure results. Much will depend on your source water quality.

                If I'm looking at the right expobar cartridge you mentioned, it seems that it can be recharged? (i.e periodic addition of salt) so if it performs ok, then why would you bother with a much more expensive solution?

                You didn't mention if you already have filter(s) (i.e particulate, carbon, etc) supplying water for your machine? If so and if you only need some softening, then try the in-tank expobar. If you also need filtration, then I recommend looking for generic filter housings that accept standard 10 inch filter cartridges. You can buy these, and the replacement cartridges from just about any big hardware store, or water filter supplier. I try to avoid proprietary and/or patented products that lock you in to having to buy unique (and often more expensive) spares, particularly if there is no difference in performance.

                For some useful information on water softening and quality, refer to;
                http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water%20Q...ater%20FAQ.pdf

                Cheers

                Comment


                • #9
                  But correctly compared with this one C150 Kit upgrade kit for 1/4" hose - BRITA :: COFFEE & ICE FILTERS :: WATER...

                  Once again, apples with apples

                  Originally posted by Mouldy View Post
                  Perhaps by those who sell it?

                  As for the expobar unit you mentioned, if you can buy them at that price it may be worth trying one to see how well and for how long it works, but you'll need hardness test kit(s) if you want to measure results. Much will depend on your source water quality.

                  If I'm looking at the right expobar cartridge you mentioned, it seems that it can be recharged? (i.e periodic addition of salt) so if it performs ok, then why would you bother with a much more expensive solution?
                  We sell it. Why? Because it works.

                  We also see machines with inline filters which have regularly been recharged and yet they are significantly scaled.

                  I defer to experts in water filtration rather than blindly accepting the opinions of otherwise unqualified people who publish them on the internerd.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    hahaha....love that one..."internerd" !

                    For the rest of it:

                    Mouldy: re the mini resin softener / filter. It was all explained in post # 5.

                    The reason for going with a "more expensive" solution as per TalkCoffee offering (and also explaining a comment of his re softeners being recharged but machines still showing up with scale) is because they (the mini resin softener/filters) are misunderstood. The salient point is Litres not Time, coupled with "client psychology". I'll bet my last $10.00 that machines presenting with some scale despite the owners saying they have been recharging the softeners, is due to:
                    a) owners recharging way past the correct volume spec (according to the incorrect "3 month" advice) and
                    b) owners often say stuff that isnt...well.....ummmm.....quite true.....(ie they say they did stuff when in fact....they didnt.....)....

                    The most convenient way to do this (and be assured it is being done correctly) is in fact to use a filtration unit of whatever kind, rather than to rely on owners recharging resin softeners....which they will seldom do.

                    This is the reason that the supply of (much larger capacity) commercial size resin filters for commercial fitments was DiSCONTINUED years ago...they work, but NO ONE can be relied upon to do the recharging operation. So now we supply commercial size in line scale INHIBITING filters and charge them out to the clients, and put the clients on a rotation to replace at the correct interval, again (rightly) at client expense.

                    This topic does not need to be discussed on the basis of *guess work*...it's already been sorted.

                    Those that wont recharge a resin softener properly, at the proper intervals, need to buy appropriate scale inhibiting filters that also do particles and odours (so called 3 part filtration"). NOT from hardware stores, but from professionals that specialise in coffee machine applications and can supply the right gear to allow easiest most conveniewnt fitment.

                    In the end, it really is all about getting the job done in the easiest and most convenient way possible, and as I tried to show above, something that at first seems t be the "cheapest' option may in fact not be when you weigh up ALL the possilbe scenarios including the probability that something may not get done properly. Also....$9.00 for the mini resin filter....thats bargain basement and you would want to be lucky and buy 20 of them at once....

                    Hope that helps

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                      But correctly compared with this one C150 Kit upgrade kit for 1/4" hose - BRITA :: COFFEE & ICE FILTERS :: WATER...

                      Once again, apples with apples
                      The Expobar is not plumbed in so I need a benchtop version - $400.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yeh, I can't say with my hand on my heart that I refresh my inline filter every 30 litres, but would be confident that I do so every 50 litres or so. This is largely because I refresh the boiler regularly (i.e. to warm each cup), so 30 litres doesn't take long to pass through. I have 3 or 4 of the inline filters, so there's always one that has been recharged that is ready to go (I leave the recharged ones within eyesight of the machine to remind me of their presence ). Combining this with filtering all water with a benchtop Brita system (and regular changing of the cartridge) *seems* to have done the job for the last few years (famous last words....I know).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rmchenry View Post
                          The Expobar is not plumbed in so I need a benchtop version - $400.
                          Filtration | Talk Coffee

                          Not $400: Aqua Pro benchtop filtration system | Talk Coffee

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
                            We sell it. Why? Because it works
                            No doubt it would work, as would a multitude of other systems, but not what the OP was asking. I was simply responding to the question.


                            Originally posted by TOK View Post
                            Those that wont recharge a resin softener properly, at the proper intervals, need to buy appropriate scale inhibiting filters that also do particles and odours (so called 3 part filtration").
                            Are these same people that can't be trusted to replace/recharge their softener suddenly going to become diligent when it comes to replacing their $130 all in one cartridge? (which, like the softeners, is dependant on litres, not time). I think your logic fails here for obvious reasons.

                            Some people choose convenience over price/value; which is fine and understandable. However, the OP asked a specific question seeking to understand whether an alternative solution would descale the water adequately. I offered a suggestion to do a trial and measure results by testing. An obvious, and low cost initial step before committing to anything further.
                            Last edited by Mouldy; 3 November 2014, 08:01 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mouldy View Post
                              Are these same people that can't be trusted to replace/recharge their softener suddenly going to become diligent when it comes to replacing their $130 all in one cartridge? (which, like the softeners, is dependant on litres, not time). I think your logic fails here for obvious reasons....
                              I didnt say one way or another the equipment operators would remember or not to change the filters so I dont believe there has been any failiure in the logic. However the filters last a lot longer than 30 litres and will therefore protect the equipment for longer. Additionally, the resin filter is in the tank out of sight and out of mind, where the on counter filtered water fountain is out in front of everyone. The point is the resin filters, while good if worked properly, last about 5 minutes in the scheme of things....but they do offer low cost initial set up and if the OP already has the expobar, then he also has the resin filter.

                              Comment

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