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Home Water Filtration - Will this work/be enough??
Notice "dissolved minerals and salts" is not ticked...
Hahaha OK, I'll bite.... what is the purpose/point of this statement?
You sound like you may have some knowledge/experience in this area, & clearly there are a bunch of folks who are trying to navigate the somewhat complex world of water filtering for their coffee machines. Would you be keen to share your knowledge so that others may be able to benefit?
Easier to use Bombora supplies. They know coffee and know coffee filtration.
Agree - I too spent hours web researching water filtration and eventually contacted and went with the Bombora recommended Everpure Claris to deal with the chemical cocktail that emits from Perth taps. No complaints yet.
You sound like you may have some knowledge/experience in this area, & clearly there are a bunch of folks who are trying to navigate the somewhat complex world of water filtering for their coffee machines. Would you be keen to share your knowledge so that others may be able to benefit?
I have a reasonable handle on how the various technologies work, and their limitations (i.e. the science and engineering principles), but my experience is with industrial applications, and somewhat limited.
Interpreting datasheets is the easy part, but sadly only half the problem
If you can find a competent vendor who understands the needs of your application and the products available, that's your best bet.
Always happy to try and answer questions posted on the forum though, where I can.
I am in exactly the same boat as the OP... getting a new kitchen but only a single mixer tap (4.5L/min) so need a filtration system that will cope with filtering all the cold water requirements of a kitchen.
I came across this set-up:
Twin High Flow Cold Water Line Water Filter System from Clarence Water Filters.
First stage is a 5 micron poly spun sediment filter to remove dirt, rust, algae etc.
Second stage is a 5 micron phosphate and coconut shell carbon (GAC) for scale reduction, taste and odour.
Flow rate of 15-16 litres per minute.
Anyone able to give me any feedback on this suggestion?
Am about to give Bombora a ring as well (thanks for the suggestion).
Now, before I go any further, a few disclaimers, I’m in mental health and am not a chemical engineer/scientist or coffee machine technician by any stretch of the imagination.
What I share here is simply my understanding of how it was explained to me, along with a little additional research (google quality only). Do with this info what you will!
That being said, I now have an appreciation as to why it’s so difficult to find the answers to what seems like a simple question!
So last week I spoke with the good folk at Water Filters Australia who advised that I was best to talk to Pentair, again, but this time provided a name & number for Mark* who was most helpful.
After listening to me discuss the results of my testing (both pre & post) and my concerns with the Everpure 4FC-S, he told me of this lovely little compound, called Polyphosphates and how they are used in some water filtration applications.
In essence they are dispersed into the water supply through the cartridge (the dispersion mechanism & technology appears to vary significantly depending on the manufacturer) under my sink. Once in the water supply, Mark* said that they bind to the errant magnesium (mg) & calcium (ca) & the occasional iron(fe) ions, and do so in such a way that they are now not available to form scale in your trusty pipes etc.
Now I may have mis-heard Mark*, however a little research has found an article from the American Water Works Association Journal** (1957 - yes I know, it’s old!), written by the Head of the Illinois State Water Survey, a Mr Thurston Larson, who states that PP’s are only effective against Calcium Carbonate in the battle against scale. Maybe the science around PP’s has evolved somewhat since 1957 to include magnesium ions?
In addition, Mark* explained that the PP’s also ‘coat’ your metal appliances making it difficult for scale to attach and form. Perfect right?
Well not quite… my understanding is that the PP’s are generally ok, and perform as stated, until they spend a bit of time in a heated environment, where, if they get hot enough, for long enough, they fall out of their newly formed relationship (chemical bond) and create what’s known as orthophosphate. Which is by and large not a problem, until it forms it’s own kind of scale by bonding with the calcium and we’re right back where we started. We have scale!
Thurston says “…The rates for reversion for various polyphosphates vary, but there is no record of any polyphosphate that possesses desirable useful properties which is not subject to partial or complete reversion to orthophosphate within a matter of hours under high-temperature conditions…”.
Hmmm does he mean perhaps like inside my twin boilers?
It’s an interesting read, which Thurston finishes up by saying “…Polyphosphates are a truly remarkable class of chemicals. Their effectiveness for many purposes has been demonstrated in the laboratory and by practice. Their ineffectiveness for other purposes has also been established in the laboratory as well as by experience. It is unfortunate that no specific data are available for the cure-all misapplications which have resulted in disastrous failures and chaotic difficulties….”
which to my naive ears suggests that there is definitely a suitable application in the water filtration arena for the 4FC-S, but it may not be quite at the level I’m looking at for my shiny new Expobar Minore IV!
When I asked Mark* about the fact that my testing & re-testing showed no change with regard to water hardness, he stated that the effectiveness of the PP’s are not going to be able to be tested in my standard GH & KH water testing (possibly at all?), which means I’ve no real way of knowing if they’re working or not, other than to take the company’s word for it. He was unable to direct me to any literature around Everpure’s testing, however I did catch him while he was driving. He did make a point of saying that Everpure is a “…multi national…” with the language around this comment suggesting that if it did not work this would have been the organisation’s downfall long ago. Being the skeptic that I am, I still prefer to see evidence based arguments.
When I pressed him for an answer as to what I should do to minimise my potential scale build up, he recommended that I explore the Everpure Claris Ultra or similar, but that in the meantime, my machine would be ‘fine’ with the 4FC-S for a ‘couple of months’. Which gives me some solace until I sort out what happens next.
Mark* suggested that the Claris Ultra was probably what I would be better to go for, particularly if I didn’t want to head down the road of RO and then adding minerals back into the water. The way he described it was that it did a little of the PP’s as well as the removal of the CA & MG from my water at the same time. The only issue was the water flow, which I had actually solved through an earlier conversation and which Mark* agreed was a strong solution. That solution is a little further on.
Now to confound things some more, I spoke with another bloke last week, Bob* from Bombora/Fridge Filters who, after very patiently listening to my tale, if I understood him correctly, suggested that the difficulty with what I was searching for (something that I could link up to my existing tap without adding another tap to my sink or reducing my water flow to 1 ltr/min) was that when using a resin or PP’s style solution it’s not simply enough to allow water to flow over them, but that the water needs to flow at such a slow rate so as to absorb the resin for it to be of any use.
We explored a couple of products including 3M, Everpure and of course Brita.
His recommendation echoed that of the many good folk on here like Chris from TC. His preference and ultimate recommendation was the Brita C150.
The solution to the taps on the sink issue & the slow flow rate though the main tap, was to simply not install a tap at all, but to leave the water after the Brita C150 filtration unit hose with a one way ‘locking’ valve/tap/end (no idea what the correct term is!), and to switch it on when I need to fill my jug/container, all from under the sink! Genius in it’s simplicity really!
Mr Jack, except in the case of using an RO system I didn't think there was a cartridge that filters out 'minerals & salts' at a domestic level. Do you know of one?
Pete, the key points I’ve found in all of this, if your goal is to reduce/eliminate de-scaling of your machine, is to reduce your water ‘hardness’ to circa 40-60ppm (not 60-80 as I earlier stated). It’s worthy to note though that this is below what some suggest is the optimum ‘taste’ range for espresso (circa 80-100ppm). As you're remodelling you may want to consider a 3 way tap, if you still want to go the Brita C150/Claris Ultra style.
I have found no ‘under sink’ option that enables me to utilise the main tap in my sink without either a 3 way tap or seriously impeding the water flow at the tap to that of a trickle (1 or 2 ltr/min).
My understanding is that the options are:
1 - Do nothing & risk damage & or have a regular interval descale (2-4 months!)
2 - ION exchange which includes units that you can ‘regenerate’ - not ideal if you need to watch your salt intake for medical reasons
3 - Reverse Osmosis - but that comes with it’s own risk to machines if not managed appropriately and some suggest can taste lousy, but I have no experience of this
4 - Polyphosphate additives which is it’s own type of ION exchange but is reportedly unstable at temperatures above 60℃ - technology in this area may have improved to such that this is no longer the case - a suitably qualified chemist/scientist etc may be able to shed some light on this
5 - Rain water - and if the water is too soft - mix it with some ‘hard’ tap water
6 - Bottled water - but check the chemical breakdown & test hardness for your water choice
7 - Give up and drink tea!
Personally, I’m off to look at rain water tanks with a decent first flush and particle filters at the entry & exit points.
Apologies for the length folks, it’s taken a while to find the ladder out of this rabbit hole! If you fall in, be wary of the snake oil salesman, there are a few about…
Cheers all and thanks for the reply's and patience from those that have seen / read it all before....
Coffee_Dude,
Great work with your investigations,very thorough!
Sound as though you have a real nice espresso machine there,had you ever considered using rain water for your machine?
I have my la Cimbali two group m27 basic set up by my back door,its connected to my 21/2 thousand litre house tank,via a pre flush 60 litre diverter tank.Simple connection to a garden tap (tank connected) with non return valve installed,terrific system...works smoothly,no filters (other then the diverter tank),so scale,no dust,no chemical cleaning,no gunk of any description enters any of my machines.
Machines that aren't connected are "jug fed".
I also recently set up a heat exchanger "Bezzera" single group at my work,all staff are using that happily these last two weeks,love the flavour of coffee without the "town water taste"
Everybody to their own I suppose,I'm happy puddling along as I'm doing,just interested in "why people insist filtering is the only way".
Cheers,
Mick.
So, jumping into the same situation, and having read all of this thread, are we saying that Rain Tank Water is better than a filtered water system than something like the Brita C150? I am also in Brisbane. I have 20,000 raintank installed already and only use it at the moment for topping up the pool washing the cars and for the dogs?
Now really confused. Rang Bombora supplies and not sure they really had someone on hand to tell me what should be done. The first person said they were knowledgeable on water filtration but when I asked about rain water vs tap water she passes me onto the expert. Second person told asked me what my coffee machine was (a Rocket Giotto) and she said she had never heard of it. She then told me I need two separate systems, A Brita C150 for the coffee machine and a separate system for drinking water. When I said I wanted a system that could do both she said that's not possible. Now I have no idea what to do.
Now really confused. Rang Bombora supplies and not sure they really had someone on hand to tell me what should be done. The first person said they were knowledgeable on water filtration but when I asked about rain water vs tap water she passes me onto the expert. Second person told asked me what my coffee machine was (a Rocket Giotto) and she said she had never heard of it. She then told me I need two separate systems, A Brita C150 for the coffee machine and a separate system for drinking water. When I said I wanted a system that could do both she said that's not possible. Now I have no idea what to do.
Please refer to reply#6 and follow directions.
Google or any other search engine will be your friend.
Water in Brisbane is pretty good, water on the Gold Coast is excellent. Bombora is in Perth and are experts in WA water which is on a par with SA water.
Talk to a local expert, it really is that simple. Your brand of machine is irrelevant.
Now really confused. Rang Bombora supplies and not sure they really had someone on hand to tell me what should be done. The first person said they were knowledgeable on water filtration but when I asked about rain water vs tap water she passes me onto the expert. Second person told asked me what my coffee machine was (a Rocket Giotto) and she said she had never heard of it. She then told me I need two separate systems, A Brita C150 for the coffee machine and a separate system for drinking water. When I said I wanted a system that could do both she said that's not possible. Now I have no idea what to do.
Hi Studel, it is confusing. Very simply, Bombora is probably right. I looked pretty hard and couldn't find a solution that would address my initial goal. Tap water that was suitable for normal sink duties and good for my machine. The earlier choice I espoused is NOT the solution!
Standard disclaimers apply, I'm no chemist, industrial or otherwise, and found that many resellers were focused on selling what they stock. Exception being Bombora, but then again they seem to stock everything! This all just my personal experience/research (google quality only!).
The simplest solution I found for plumbing is a Brita C150 PLV kit that you plumb under the sink, and if you don't want another tap on the sink, a switch/tap on the end of a bit of braided hose (buy that separately from either Bombora as a kit, or the parts form the hardware/plumber - your call) that allows you to fill a jug under the sink for filling your machine. Total cost about $250ish.
Given that you have access to rain water, if it's being filtered appropriately, I would be using that. Plenty of simple, inexpensive micro filters that will be more than enough for what you want. As long as you take all the normal precautions for bird/bat poo that could potentially harbour nasties etc.
Most valuable thing you can purchase? A water test kit that tests for water hardness (GH & KH). Go to your local pet store/aquarium and ask them for a kit. About $20/30 for a titration style kit. This will allow you to keep tabs on the water quality. Everybody seems to have different opinions, but generally you're aiming for 40-60ppm, but it depends on your personal taste. Good luck!
Hi,
Could you do what I did?
I simply plumbed my Brita C150 into the fridge water instead of standard fridge filter and took a T off that line to the Izzo. We have great filtered water for drinking and coffee
Water in Rocky very hard so set to 80 or 90% from memory. No issues re high bypass % with this setting
Cheers
Dave
Hi Studel, it is confusing. Very simply, Bombora is probably right. I looked pretty hard and couldn't find a solution that would address my initial goal. Tap water that was suitable for normal sink duties and good for my machine. The earlier choice I espoused is NOT the solution!
Standard disclaimers apply, I'm no chemist, industrial or otherwise, and found that many resellers were focused on selling what they stock. Exception being Bombora, but then again they seem to stock everything! This all just my personal experience/research (google quality only!).
The simplest solution I found for plumbing is a Brita C150 PLV kit that you plumb under the sink, and if you don't want another tap on the sink, a switch/tap on the end of a bit of braided hose (buy that separately from either Bombora as a kit, or the parts form the hardware/plumber - your call) that allows you to fill a jug under the sink for filling your machine. Total cost about $250ish.
Given that you have access to rain water, if it's being filtered appropriately, I would be using that. Plenty of simple, inexpensive micro filters that will be more than enough for what you want. As long as you take all the normal precautions for bird/bat poo that could potentially harbour nasties etc.
Most valuable thing you can purchase? A water test kit that tests for water hardness (GH & KH). Go to your local pet store/aquarium and ask them for a kit. About $20/30 for a titration style kit. This will allow you to keep tabs on the water quality. Everybody seems to have different opinions, but generally you're aiming for 40-60ppm, but it depends on your personal taste. Good luck!
Yep, i think you are on the right path there with with the C150. I don't mind the extra tap but getting decent advise seems to be night impossible on the filtration even for the tank water. The people down the coast started said to filter the tank water and don't worry about the other. I said I didn't want to get scale, then he started spooking about inline magnets etc that I have read a lot on and yet to see any hard evidence. My Tank is not in the house as such but i can get to it easy enough. It seems clean, no smell, clear, tastes a little metallic so i will take you advice and get a test kit.
Are you going tank water? If so, which system are putting in to filter it before the C150 or have you decided to go another way?
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