Water filter supplier recommendation please!!!

[MrFreddofrog]

Hi all

This is sooooo frustrating. There are hundred of filters out their so I followed CS recommendations and spoke to two filter supplier CS sponsors. The most common one everyone recommends and another one that isn't really pushed on CS as a filter supplier but at least they still sell filters. Both left me very under-whelmed.

While both were very friendly (full points there), neither were particularly knowledgeable. One could not answer very basic questions about verifying their product claims, eg how much cysts it actually removes and the other could not explain why their filter rated at 38,000L (most are 3,000L) still needs to be changed every 6 months, (like what's the point of buying a 38,000L filter then?). Both wanted me to speak to their product managers because they are only sales reps who don't know any more about the product than what is written on the side of the packet or their website (so much for product training..... grrrrr) . Obviously the product managers were not available.

Does any one know of a water filter supplier who has sales staff who really knows their products?

Argh!!!!!!
ff

[MrFreddofrog]

Oh guess what, I just spoke to another "reputable" supplier. Their sales rep said they couldn't help me because they didn't sell twin cartridges but only singles. Argghhh.



Edit: They just called me back for the 2nd time. The first time was to tell me their technician confirmed they can't help me. Now they have left a message saying they definitely can help me. I'm going to call them back as I'm now dying to know what they could possibly say. Stay tuned.

[DaveD]

Hey ff,

I'm not sure if you have spoken to them, but I thought Bombora Coffee and Water supplies were the goto people for filtration. Check out their website and give them a call if you haven't already.

Cheers, Dave

[MrFreddofrog]

Thanks Dave, already spoken to them.

[sprezzatura]

Some of the filters that are rated high litres have a by-pass valve. If the by-pass valve doesn't by-pass water its rating dramatically drops (e.g., 36,000 to 9,500)

[sprezzatura]

I had a water filtration expert tell me he uses 1 micron for cysts. I recommend testing your water (TDS and TH) and then calling WFS in Melbourne if you haven't had any luck with CS sponsors. I have been dealing with them when I have a bad water/expensive machine install. There are plenty of other options out there but the BWT filters and digi-counters are good gear.

[MrJack]

The problem doesn't stop at retail. Often the sales engineers from the manufacturers don't really understand their products beyond the technical specs.

What water are you filtering?

[MrFreddofrog]

Yeah, when I asked how one sales rep much cysts it removes they couldn't answer but side stepped to talk about microns. So I asked them to explain their micron rating but they couldn't explain that either. At this point my confidence in the company evaporated and I went elsewhere.

Mrjack I'm in Perth. I actually think my water is fine but who knows. It just annoys me all these filter companies with exceedingly few exceptions lack knowledgable staff who can substantiate their product claims.

[TC]

Yeah, when I asked how one sales rep much cysts it removes they couldn't answer

The correct answer was to tell you that he started counting but ran out of microscope time...

Mrjack I'm in Perth. I actually think my water is fine but who knows.

Yeah- WA is where espresso machines go to die and FWIW, Perth water in most applications means RO.

Coffee filters and dual filters? They couldn't answer because it's not the way that coffee filters are designed. They're single filters. If you wanted to add a specialist additional filter- go for it, but that may be a job for two different manufacturers/suppliers specialising in different applications.

Why are they replaced on a time rather than litre basis in most cases? Cut one in half after 12 months of home use or at the end of cafe life which will probably be litres rather than time and you will have your answer.

Best bet is to have your water tested so you know what you have and then take things from there. Rather than grilling people who need to be generalist on hundreds or thousands of products, you might go to the manufacturer websites and do some research yourself.

I feel sorry for the salespeople as your account sounds like they have now experienced a full in the glare of the spotlight grilling.

[MrJack]

To be fair, perhaps its the questions?

It is not possible to say "how much" cysts it removes, without knowing what is in your water.

A filter will remove particles down to a certain size (usually measure in microns - i.e. micrometres).

According to "the internet" cysts can be anywhere from 1 micron to 20 micron. So, a filter which removes 99.9% of particles larger than 5 micron, will pass the smallest cysts. But if your water only has cysts greater than 10 micron, it will remove 99.9% of them.

That's assuming it has any cysts in it at all...

If you're seriously worried, reverse osmosis will remove all organic materials.

[Javaphile]

If you're seriously worried, reverse osmosis will remove all organic materials.

Not necessarily. Not all reverse osmosis systems/membranes are created equal. Membrane pore sizes can vary from 0.1 to 5,000 nm (4×10−9 to 2×10−4 in). Many, most per some sources, do not in fact remove all organic materials. It is for this reason that places such as Europe do not allow the use solely of an RO membrane for the production of bottled natural mineral water. In practice, a fraction of living bacteria can and does pass through reverse osmosis membranes through minor imperfections. This is why many reverse osmosis systems include additional water treatment stages that use ultraviolet light or ozone to prevent microbiological contamination.


Java "Isn't science fun!" phile

[MrJack]

Perhaps I should have said "almost" everything organic.

Most of the time, additional treatment stages are actually upstream of the RO membrane - to protect it, and prevent scaling and fouling.

There are various industrial membrane treatment "technologies" (nano, ultra etc.). However, the pores in RO membranes are small enough to reject just about anything (including viruses); significantly smaller than any microbe. Defects and leaks aside (which will affect any system).

That said, it's true that if pathogen removal is a key design concern, you would usually specify more than one method of treatment.

P.s. Did you write the Wikipedia page, or just read it?

[Javaphile]

While physical filtration is typically performed upstream of the membrane, anti-microbial treatments such as UV and ozone are more usually located downstream of the membrane.


Java "Who writes many things" phile

[sprezzatura]

I'm using a High-Flow 3M filter. It has a handy pressure gauge built in to the head. Since I have a pressure limiting valve and know what the out flow is when it reads 10 or less psi it's time for a filter change be it 180 days or 90 days and so forth. Turbidity fluctuates and so does TDS and overall hardness in Queensland due to flooding and drought.

[MrFreddofrog]

It was hardly a grilling. I asked (two) very basic questions that a professional sales rep should know. What annoyed me more was the attempt to disguise the lack of knowledge and apathy to find the answers.

The company I did go with had the same basic level of knowledge but at least he tried to find out. I ended up buying a Doulton Ultracarb filter. Pretty pricey but at least the manufacturer could substantiate their claims, unlike all the others. The Doulton is independently certified to remove 99.999% of cysts and 99.99% of bacteria. It removes 99.99% of material greater than 0.9 micron and 99.9% of material between 0.5-0.8 microns. Doulton also provide stats on heavy metal reduction, chlorine reduction, organics, insecticides etc. Go google other manufacturer specs and see how much time you can waste looking for stuff that doesn't exist, I spent hours.

Given my reluctance to spend such a lot of money on a single filter ($75), the rep threw in a sedimentary filter and shipping was free. Even though he/the Doulton was by far the most expensive, his willingness to find answers to my questions was definitely one of the reasons I went with him and the product he recommended.