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  • Help with 21g Basket

    I'm using a Diadema Junior and Eureka Mignon I got from ebay for $350 (Score!!). Boiler has been descaled, grouphead has been caffetto flushed. I'm using a naked and 21g basket atm and trying to get the shot 'right'. Beans are from Douwe Egberts ("Espresso Di Manfredi - Audacia") and are meant to be decent beans and they are fresh from a new packet.

    Sometimes my shots I feel are perfect and taste very smooth and caramel-like. Other times it's close, quite drinkable, but lacks that superb hit from the perfect shot. I drink it straight. So far I have been weighing up 21 grams level, tamping consistently the same firmness, then pulling the shot for about 15-20 seconds. When I tamp the coffee sits on the marker line on the basket. When I level it off it's pretty much 21g level without any tapping to settle it.

    The shot sometimes it's close sometimes not. What's coming out from the naked is very uniform, even, there's no leaking off the sides or anything erratic. It starts off slow and even and gradually increases. I think that's a good sign.

    I think I've eliminated most variables except for the time of the shot now, so should I be pulling it a bit shorter or longer? Should I be aiming from X-mls for 21g?

  • #2
    Those beans you are using sound suspiciously like Supermarket bought beans mate....

    Those things are waaayyy stale even before they're put up on the shelf.
    Do yourself a huge favour, find a reputable local roaster or consider buying from CoffeeSnobs or one of our Sponsors.
    The only way to truly enjoy great coffee regardless of anything else, is to use freshly roasted, high quality beans...

    Mal.

    Comment


    • #3
      Have to agree with Mal; the first variable you should change is the bean quality. Buy something with a roast date on it, not a use-by date.
      Sounds like you have the grind, dose and tamp right but the old 30 mls in 30 secs from a double basket is a fairly good guide

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by flynnaus View Post
        ...the old 30 mls in 30 secs from a double basket is a fairly good guide
        I think you mean 60ml in 30 seconds. 30ml in 30 seconds would be for the single basket.


        Java "30 what?" phile
        Toys! I must have new toys!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
          I think you mean 60ml in 30 seconds. 30ml in 30 seconds would be for the single basket.
          Well yes but who uses single baskets ? A double basket could be used to pour 2 x 30ml shots or one 60ml shot so I meant a 30ml shot in one cup. You might also prefer a 25ml ristretto shot.
          It isn't a hard and fast rule and I rarely time my shots these days.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by flynnaus View Post
            Well yes but who uses single baskets ? A double basket could be used to pour 2 x 30ml shots or one 60ml shot so I meant a 30ml shot in one cup.
            Yes but...

            Originally posted by aoeu View Post
            I'm using a naked and 21g basket atm



            Java "Naked what?" phile
            Toys! I must have new toys!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Give up thinking in mls you're leading yourself astray. If you can weigh 21grams in a basket would should have the equipment to weigh 42g of coffee coming out. That should take around 30 secs. If you get your 42 grams in less time grind finer. Don't change your 21grams if that's your basket or your tamp or anything else. Get that happening consistently and that's your starting point.

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              • #8
                OK, I fold

                Comment


                • #9
                  So many rules....... a pox on rules. They are meant to be broken.

                  Sure, there are some 'parameters' that could be used as a starting point

                  but if you adhere to formula/e as a narrow minded 'hard and fast' you may just miss the mark and never quite

                  get to experience the best your coffee can be.

                  So, play around, forget convention, find the spot that is your own coffee nirvana.

                  And remember.... no two coffees are the same, so there is no one rule to bind them.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by chokkidog View Post
                    So many rules....... a pox on rules. They are meant to be broken.

                    Sure, there are some 'parameters' that could be used as a starting point

                    but if you adhere to formula as a narrow minded 'hard and fast' you may just miss the mark and never quite

                    get to experience the best your coffee can be.

                    So, play around, forget convention, find the spot that is your own coffee nirvana.

                    And remember.... no two coffees are the same, so there is no one rule to bind them.
                    Totally agree. All I'm saying is a 2 - 1 ratio by weight gets nearly any non specialist roast in the ball park. From there anyone can play away but that is the home button. I spent years chasing my tail until I put all these rules in the bin in utter frustration and set one simple base.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thankyou. I will try 42g from the 21g. I didn't realise that was a ratio to aim for.

                      Regarding the beans, well I can't say with authority how good they are. But I'm getting them off the production line a week or two after roasting. A friend works there. It's cheap @ $10/kg.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by chokkidog View Post
                        So many rules....... a pox on rules. They are meant to be broken.

                        Sure, there are some 'parameters' that could be used as a starting point

                        but if you adhere to formula/e as a narrow minded 'hard and fast' you may just miss the mark and never quite

                        get to experience the best your coffee can be.

                        So, play around, forget convention, find the spot that is your own coffee nirvana.

                        And remember.... no two coffees are the same, so there is no one rule to bind them.
                        And therein lies the rub, how can you knowingly break the rules if you have no concept of what the rules are?

                        As you say "there are some 'parameters' that could be used as a starting point" call them what you like, basics, guidelines, criteria, fundamentals, parameters, whatever, when your starting out in any endeavor its helpful to have an understanding of what your trying to achieve and how best to go about it, once you have attained a reasonable and repeatable level of proficiency you can bend and modify accepted practice all you want.

                        Most of us when starting out will attempt to learn from those who have been there before, and, have hopefully mastered the skills we are trying to acquire.

                        I guess if making coffee was a simple process to convey we could post one set of guidelines for newcomers to follow and the forum as we know it would become redundant.
                        Last edited by Yelta; 10 March 2016, 01:27 AM. Reason: correction

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As has been said more times than I can count by many, many of us on this site "the rules" in coffee brewing are only a starting point. These rules/parameters/guidelines/call them what you will are not set in stone to always be followed with no deviations. They are not engraved on golden tablets as an immutable order handed down by the coffee gods. They are simply a common starting point for those new to their equipment and/or the world of specialty coffee which enables them to have a set of common guidelines that helps them to achieve consistency. Once they have consistency with their equipment and beans then it's time to start changing things up until they find what works best and tastes best to them given their equipment, beans, and taste buds.

                          People need to get consistent with one simple set of parameters so they don't end up frustrated and chasing their tail. That way when they do then start changing the variables and find what makes their perfect cup they'll have the experience to be able to repeat what they just did.


                          Java "It's all about repeat-ability" phile
                          Toys! I must have new toys!!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Javaphile View Post
                            As has been said more times than I can count by many, many of us on this site "the rules" in coffee brewing are only a starting point. These rules/parameters/guidelines/call them what you will are not set in stone to always be followed with no deviations. They are not engraved on golden tablets as an immutable order handed down by the coffee gods. They are simply a common starting point for those new to their equipment and/or the world of specialty coffee which enables them to have a set of common guidelines that helps them to achieve consistency. Once they have consistency with their equipment and beans then it's time to start changing things up until they find what works best and tastes best to them given their equipment, beans, and taste buds.

                            People need to get consistent with one simple set of parameters so they don't end up frustrated and chasing their tail. That way when they do then start changing the variables and find what makes their perfect cup they'll have the experience to be able to repeat what they just did.


                            Java "It's all about repeat-ability" phile
                            On this we can agree, I suspect you and I have expressed very similar opinions in our posts in a slightly different way.

                            Yep, consistency and repeatability, and I don't mean consistently and repeatably bad.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              With my current grind and tamping I got 42g coffee in 26 seconds. Might adjust it a notch finer.

                              I'm all for breaking/bending the rules too once I know what the rules are and what they taste like.

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