Expobar Office watery extraction & way too fast
Easy way to rule out the grinder:
Go to your local roaster, buy whatever the minimum is (eg: 250 grams).
Have the roaster grind them for you in their bulk grinder on the espresso setting.
Take it home and test.
Based on what you've told us to date, I think there's something amiss with your grinder.
Another option is to use the grounds from your grinder in a French press. If you can push the piston down, then it's not fine enough. An espresso level fineness will stop a French press in its tracks.
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Expobar Office watery extraction & way too fast
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Why does the fact your grinder is set to 4 (or 3) mean that it is grinding fine enough? Maybe grind a small amount, scatter it on some white paper and take a photo?Originally posted by muso44 View PostMine seems to be grinding fine enough as I am using it on 4 sometimes on 3. Coffee taste doesn't get any better by going finer so far.
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Mine seems to be grinding fine enough as I am using it on 4 sometimes on 3. Coffee taste doesn't get any better by going finer so far.Originally posted by tobeanornottobean View PostI had a similar issue with the pour from an em480 suddenly increasing. Re seating the upper burr housing helped, but I didn't get it to grind as fine as it used to. Still got me stumped. Your new grinder will no doubt fix things. be mindful of distribution though, as channelling may creep in, and make you wonder what is going on all over again.
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Originally posted by trentski View PostThere must be a standard flow rate that can be measured with no group handle on place.
Finding that out and checking it would be a good start.
That's a very good idea Trentski If I can find the spec of the the pump that would be a very good place to start to make sure the flow rate is as it should be.
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There must be a standard flow rate that can be measured with no group handle on place.
Finding that out and checking it would be a good start.
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I had a similar issue with the pour from an em480 suddenly increasing. Re seating the upper burr housing helped, but I didn't get it to grind as fine as it used to. Still got me stumped. Your new grinder will no doubt fix things. be mindful of distribution though, as channelling may creep in, and make you wonder what is going on all over again.
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Originally posted by MrFreddofrog View PostYou're right of course, fresh beans won't account for 600% though it will/should account for a fair portion. With your new batch of beans, what is the roasting date? Fresh is a relative term so knowing the actual date is more useful that someone claiming it is fresh.
I've got a brand new BCG820 grinder and even on it's finest setting it's not fine enough. I had to do some Breville authorised mods before I could get a sub 30sec pour. Point being just because you have it at the finest setting doesn't mean it is fine enough.
Once you are tamping "hard enough" further pressures has minimal effect. BTW what do you mean by "really hard"? Tamp on a set of scales and measure it. The most commonly quoted amount of tamping pressure is 30lbs/15kg though I personally use a lot less than that but I dose differently to most people.
Wrt to adjusting pressure, google how to get the perfect shot and count how many times people suggest changing pressure verses changing grind size, dosage, tamping & freshness. Simply put, it's not necessary.
BTW I had a similar issue with my BCG800 grinder. We never solved the issue but believe it was due to static buildup, possibly due to the grounding wire breaking within the grinder.
Yes you are right it did account for a fair portion with fresh beans. I checked today and they were roasted 5 days ago. The flow has come down to 120mls in 25 seconds
I have had my Sunbeam EM480 since new but I know its limitations I am not expecting it to provide the same quality as a Vario or Macap it seems to be grinding fine enough though
I set it on 4 & I just poured a shot about an hour ago and it is the best I have ever made on this machine and definitely cafe quality. So there is nothing wrong with this machine.
It helped me watching this video
How to make the perfect espresso at home
I also found that the single basket I was using could have added to the problem as it is tapered at the bottom and the screen at the bottom is about half the size at the top
(maybe creating channeling) so I am now using the double shot basket which is parallel & the screen is virtually the same size as the top. With the single basket there is a big chance of underdosing.
At a guess I was tamping somewhere around 20kg.
I cant wait to get the Macap M4D to see if I can get the pour down to 30mls
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It's very unlikely to be a problem with brew pressure, because if you're getting those kinds of flowrates you probably don't have enough resistance to even reach 9 barg (I'd have to see the pump curve but I don't think a vibe pump will do 420 mL/min at 9 barg).
Flow and flow resistance drive the pressure, it's NOT the other way around.
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You're right of course, fresh beans won't account for 600% though it will/should account for a fair portion. With your new batch of beans, what is the roasting date? Fresh is a relative term so knowing the actual date is more useful that someone claiming it is fresh.
I've got a brand new BCG820 grinder and even on it's finest setting it's not fine enough. I had to do some Breville authorised mods before I could get a sub 30sec pour. Point being just because you have it at the finest setting doesn't mean it is fine enough.
Once you are tamping "hard enough" further pressures has minimal effect. BTW what do you mean by "really hard"? Tamp on a set of scales and measure it. The most commonly quoted amount of tamping pressure is 30lbs/15kg though I personally use a lot less than that but I dose differently to most people.
Wrt to adjusting pressure, google how to get the perfect shot and count how many times people suggest changing pressure verses changing grind size, dosage, tamping & freshness. Simply put, it's not necessary.
BTW I had a similar issue with my BCG800 grinder. We never solved the issue but believe it was due to static buildup, possibly due to the grounding wire breaking within the grinder.
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I now have some fresh beans so will try later tonight to see if that makes a difference to the rate of pour and next week I should have the Macap M4D grinder that I have ordered so will see if that makes a big difference to the pour & at this stage I am still not convinced it will turn the flow I am getting that is like a river & turn it into a trickle. I still have the feeling that a part needs replacing or adjusting somewhere.
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Yes I am yet to be convinced that stale beans will make an almost 600% difference in the rate of the pour, Sure they may not taste that good but I don't see how fresh beans will slow the pour down that much.Originally posted by MrFreddofrog View PostThough you may disagree, the current consensus is the issues are related to either using stale beans and/or too course a grind. Eliminating the first is easy, go to your local roaster and buy fresh beans.
The second is harder though you say it is already very fine. Shimming it still seems like a very good idea as it will give you more latitude to help diagnose the issue. If the grinder has seen lots of use the burrs themselves may be the issue and need replacing.
I'd still like to know how much you dose and your tamping pressure before ruling those out. Tamping doesn't make that much difference as long as it's enough and done consistently. Dosing will make lots of difference. Place a 10c piece on your puck and insert PF into group heap. Then take it out and it should have left a slight impression. No impression = underdosing, large impression = overdosing.
My comment regarding brew pressure is not related to the ease of changing it. It is just unlikely it will be that. Better to keep that at the default setting until you have eliminated old beans, poor grind, dosing and tamping issues.
I have used the finest grind setting on the Sunbeam grinder which may not be as good as some better grinders but should be ok.
I have been dosing and tamping pretty much the same over the last 3 years. It wont be overdosed because with the single basket if it is overdosed you cant fit the portafiilter onto the group head.
I have tried tamping really hard and not so hard does not make any significant difference to the rate of the pour.
The Expobar baskets have a ring inside them which I guessed is the correct level for the dose. I will try the 10 cent piece.
I don't see why I shouldnt try adjusting the brew pressure as it is probably the simplest thing to adjust on the whole machine & now I have eliminated it.
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I got the beans from Simply Beans in Underwood I understand that Joe is a reputable roaster. I just got some from there today not sure the bag has a one way valve on it though. I always store beans in an airtight container.Originally posted by Javaphile View PostWhat are you calling 'fresh beans'? If they weren't packaged in an airtight or sealed one way valved bag shortly after roasting and you got them with-in days of being roasted then they're not fresh. Beans roasted and then left sitting in jars or bins on a counter which they're bagged from when you buy them are odds on already stale. Which would explain why you're getting the same poor extraction from them as you are from the supermarket beans.
Java "First verify the beans!" phile
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Though you may disagree, the current consensus is the issues are related to either using stale beans and/or too course a grind. Eliminating the first is easy, go to your local roaster and buy fresh beans.
The second is harder though you say it is already very fine. Shimming it still seems like a very good idea as it will give you more latitude to help diagnose the issue. If the grinder has seen lots of use the burrs themselves may be the issue and need replacing.
I'd still like to know how much you dose and your tamping pressure before ruling those out. Tamping doesn't make that much difference as long as it's enough and done consistently. Dosing will make lots of difference. Place a 10c piece on your puck and insert PF into group heap. Then take it out and it should have left a slight impression. No impression = underdosing, large impression = overdosing.
My comment regarding brew pressure is not related to the ease of changing it. It is just unlikely it will be that. Better to keep that at the default setting until you have eliminated old beans, poor grind, dosing and tamping issues.
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