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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dimal View Post
    Over the 15 years, I've owned 5-6 different machines and have always used the nutating tamp, so it's not machine specific, it's just what I and a lot of others do. It just saves on the need for a separate distribution step since it just becomes part of the normal tamp technique. It's not hiding a fault with my technique or I'm sure that this would eventually show itself. It's nothing more, or less than a distribution method.

    For those people who don't need a distribution step in their routine anywhere, then that's great but I have found right from the beginning, that better distribution equals better results in the cup so I'm not going to change after 15 years of success... I'm an old dog I guess...

    Mal.
    If it ain't broke don't fix it.

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    • #17
      Absolutely! You're welcome to your process. Not trying to win you over to a change, Mal.

      I have a different distribution technique (bumping the side of my portafilter quickly 4 times, from 12 o'clock round to 3 o'clock) which is no more legitimate than another's. However, you might have an opinion on it too

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      • #18
        Originally posted by shortblackman View Post
        What can I say?

        It worked.

        Thanks Gonzo!
        Very happy to hear it worked
        To add to Mal's suggestion, I also use a nutating tamp. You do have to make sure you aren't getting a slant though if you do use the nutating method. Seems excessive but hey, I can't help it if I like a pretty looking shot. Here in Brisbane it's been clumpy grind madness for months with the humidity levels. That's another reason for my apparant excessive routine.

        Keep up the good shots

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        • #19
          Okay. I'm really pleased with this discussion. Thanks for your contributions. I understand nutating and nsew to be different things, and although I feel that I've gone somewhere good with wdt today, I'm now willing to give nutation a go.

          Limited by the amount of coffee experiments my system can handle in one day!

          if I didn't have a naked pf, I would not have had any idea how or where I was not extracting fully. But with it, I can see the under & over extraction coming out in different parts of the same shot.

          Its not that I didn't like my coffee, but I could/ can easily see where improvement can come from, get more out of the beans & gear...

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          • #20
            Originally posted by readeral View Post
            I have a different distribution technique (bumping the side of my portafilter quickly 4 times, from 12 o'clock round to 3 o'clock) which is no more legitimate than another's. However, you might have an opinion on it too
            Interesting, I use a similar technique, after dosing, tap the PF on the bench a couple of times to settle the dose, then using the top of my tamper (Delrin insert) tap the sides of the PF where needed to distribute the coffee evenly, then tamp, its a quick process, takes longer to describe than do.

            Never really thought of it as a distribution technique, although it obviously is, as others have commented re their method, works for me.

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            • #21
              Would like to bump this thread up haha, as I'd love to get clarification on this, specifically how distribution technique can affect this. I'm struggling in finding a decent, repeatable distribution technique, mine now doesn't seem to be getting consistent pours.

              Keep getting a dead spot in the centre of a bottomless portafilter extraction, it sometimes eventually comes together quickly, but sometimes it comes at 18s or even 24s into a pour when nothing has changed in distribution...

              My current distribution is dose until 3/4 full, vertical collapse. When full do some horizontal taps to hopefully even out the coffee in the lower and upper parts of the pile, vertical collapse, stockfleth and tamp. Sometimes this works well, sometimes it doesn't. Coming to more central earlier in the pour at times, and multiple streams for most of the pour at others.

              Something I'd love to chat about is if clumping affects distribution at all? If there's more clumping at one grindup, the horizontal taps may not really allow proper evening out/movement of the grounds, because the big clumps might be in the way and don't move around that easily...

              And does it MATTER if it comes central I wonder? Makes sense that it would be a more even extraction if it came central rather than multiple streams...

              Again, am just trying to determine a consistent distribution method with my newish machine and new grinder. Seems that everyone has something that works well for them, just wondering if clumping does indeed change how one should distribute, due to those clumps not really moving around to distribute properly/blocking other grounds from moving.

              Thanks y'all!

              *Edit: and yes, I plan on trying out a whole bunch, am not just here to theorise about it. But would be great to get different perspectives on pros and cons of each (or just what you use), and what distribution styles are good/not good for what situations, e.g. clumping

              Comment


              • #22
                Not looking good naked

                Hi I used to get this problem on my Cremina, it's called donut channeling. I solved it by tamping with a good fitting flat tamp with very little pressure just enough to get the grinds flat, then give it a light tamp with a small convex tamper to encourage water to flow into the middle. Also after much experimenting and reading on another forum which deals with lever machines more, I've found it's best to not tap your grinds down too much, and I wouldn't be loading grinds twice if you can help it. I do one full dose- it's timed using my Vario and use a OE funnel. Then I tap the PF on the bench very lightly maybe 2-3 times max to collapse grinds. I've found this minimises channeling. Alternatively you can just buy a convex tamper.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Wynton87 View Post
                  Hi I used to get this problem on my Cremina, it's called donut channeling. I solved it by tamping with a good fitting flat tamp with very little pressure just enough to get the grinds flat, then give it a light tamp with a small convex tamper to encourage water to flow into the middle. Also after much experimenting and reading on another forum which deals with lever machines more, I've found it's best to not tap your grinds down too much, and I wouldn't be loading grinds twice if you can help it. I do one full dose- it's timed using my Vario and use a OE funnel. Then I tap the PF on the bench very lightly maybe 2-3 times max to collapse grinds. I've found this minimises channeling. Alternatively you can just buy a convex tamper.
                  Ah interesting thoughts... especially regarding not tapping grinds too much and loading grinds twice, curious what your reasons are for that? Is it sort of along the lines of if you load half or 3/4 of grinds then collapse, then top up and collapse, that it'll be a different density throughout the basket, as you've collapsed a certain amount, then topped up and collapsed again, so it's all a bit uneven?

                  I never collapse too much I don't think, it was only one vertical collapse after 3/4 filling, then top up, horizontal taps, stockfleth, then one final vertical collapse. But there may be something in this process that is causing unevenness/inconsistencies... although I've seen many baristas do that 1/2 or 3/4 collapse... That's why I pondered whether clumping possibly changed how tapping/collapsing affects the total mass of grounds and where they are placed/displaced.

                  I do own a convex tamper but never thought too much of them, didn't make sense as it seems it would lead towards an uneven extraction, but interesting what you said, as if one is constantly getting 'donut' extractions it would encourage more water flow in the centre...

                  Great stuff, thanks Wynton87!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dimal View Post
                    Over the 15 years, I've owned 5-6 different machines and have always used the nutating tamp, so it's not machine specific, it's just what I and a lot of others do. It just saves on the need for a separate distribution step since it just becomes part of the normal tamp technique. It's not hiding a fault with my technique or I'm sure that this would eventually show itself. It's nothing more, or less than a distribution method.

                    For those people who don't need a distribution step in their routine anywhere, then that's great but I have found right from the beginning, that better distribution equals better results in the cup so I'm not going to change after 15 years of success... I'm an old dog I guess...
                    Mal.
                    What is a nutating tamp? Please

                    I am back to getting channelling in my Naked P/F.

                    I have lost my touch, was heaps better before and I can't figure what I am doing differently.

                    Searched for it found it, I think, rocking the tamper to attemt to get the edges tamped.

                    Maybe an alternative to buying the "Big Step" from Pullman.
                    But always difficult to get to the "edge".

                    I do collapse my basket when grinding into it 2-4 times.
                    Last edited by rawill; 30 August 2017, 09:36 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rawill View Post
                      What is a nutating tamp? Please

                      I am back to getting channelling in my Naked P/F.

                      I have lost my touch, was heaps better before and I can't figure what I am doing differently.
                      As per Mal's post a nutating tamp won't necessarily help if there is a fault in your technique but plenty of info via google, including a youtube vid.
                      .
                      First things first, what has changed recently that may have contributed to the channeling? Are you using different beans? Also, what sort of grinder do you have and how old are the burrs?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rawill View Post
                        What is a nutating tamp? Please

                        I am back to getting channelling in my Naked P/F.

                        I have lost my touch, was heaps better before and I can't figure what I am doing differently.

                        Searched for it found it, I think, rocking the tamper to attemt to get the edges tamped.

                        Maybe an alternative to buying the "Big Step" from Pullman.
                        But always difficult to get to the "edge".

                        I do collapse my basket when grinding into it 2-4 times.
                        A nutating tamp is sort of like a rocking motion in a circular direction. As Mal has described in the past it's not so much like a coin spinning around on it's edge, that would just push the edges down rather than distribute anything, but more like in the rotation it displaced and push the grounds around towards the edges.

                        So not a really fast motion like a wobbling coin, but more like a gyroscope as it's starting to lose it's charge/spinning momentum and it starts to do that sideways "I'm drunk" thing (best way I could explain it haha). So it acts to push the grounds AHEAD of the base, so it's a much slower motion than just sorta doing a spin around the edge wobble.

                        To me it's not something that 'cheats' your way out of bad technique, but it's a legitimate distribution technique that yes does require practice, but works effectively to fill in gaps. Very true in that you need to make sure all other parameters are in place, if you dose and you have a completely lopsided mound or you're doing too many crazy taps etc then nutation won't fix all that.

                        Now I'm not 100% sure if the tamper needs to be slightly undersized for it to work compared to using a precision fitted tamper, maybe Mal can chime in! But I think it makes sense to use a slightly undersized tamper for the nutation, so that it actually pushes the grounds around, a fitted tamper may only just sort of 'skirt' along the edges...

                        And to me it's not a tamping technique but a distribution technique, which inevitably will tamp the grounds a little due to the weight of the tamper, but will still require a proper tamp after nutating is done.

                        But yeah have a look at everything you're doing at each step, and change something small each time to see the results (keep dose and grind exactly the same though, only change distribution technique). This is pretty much what I'm doing haha, and why I brought this all up, be good to discuss the techniques and pros and cons etc.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Not looking good naked

                          Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
                          Ah interesting thoughts... especially regarding not tapping grinds too much and loading grinds twice, curious what your reasons are for that? Is it sort of along the lines of if you load half or 3/4 of grinds then collapse, then top up and collapse, that it'll be a different density throughout the basket, as you've collapsed a certain amount, then topped up and collapsed again, so it's all a bit uneven?

                          I never collapse too much I don't think, it was only one vertical collapse after 3/4 filling, then top up, horizontal taps, stockfleth, then one final vertical collapse. But there may be something in this process that is causing unevenness/inconsistencies... although I've seen many baristas do that 1/2 or 3/4 collapse... That's why I pondered whether clumping possibly changed how tapping/collapsing affects the total mass of grounds and where they are placed/displaced.

                          I do own a convex tamper but never thought too much of them, didn't make sense as it seems it would lead towards an uneven extraction, but interesting what you said, as if one is constantly getting 'donut' extractions it would encourage more water flow in the centre...

                          Great stuff, thanks Wynton87!
                          I can't verify the science behind not dosing twice but my gut feeling is that you want to minimise how much you play with the grinds, I guess keeping them as fluffy and aerated as possible. I've heard a lot of people using lever machines get their best thickest syrupy shots when they hardly tamp, some don't even tamp, they just use the shower screen as a tamp. With that theory in mind I'm guessing tapping or tamping too much can amplify the density of any clumps and lead to channels. This might be unique to lever machines though. Just my experience.

                          With regard to seeing baristas do certain things, I guess you have to remember that they will generally have high level grinders that give very fluffy and evenly distributed grinds anyway.

                          As for distribution techniques and de-clumping, I don't like the idea because I feel you should get your grinds locked into the machine as quick as possible to maximise taste.

                          You should definitely give you convex tamp a go! Report back!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Wynton, interested as to why you say declumping/distribution techniques are not a good idea? I often up end the basket into a small macchiato/large shot glass glass (they are a snug fit) to declump and find the grounds 'shrink' in size and noticeably are less clumped together.

                            I have seen the WDT before and looks a bit cumbersome, even though many swear by it.

                            I would assume the less fluffy grounds the better to reduce the amount of air pockets and potential channels?

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                            • #29
                              I will continue to follow, I got a better shot with a nutating style tamp.
                              Would have been "perfect" if I hadn't been using a Naked P/F

                              Was with a 7gm VST.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Now I'm not 100% sure if the tamper needs to be slightly undersized for it to work compared to using a precision fitted tamper, maybe Mal can chime in! But I think it makes sense to use a slightly undersized tamper for the nutation, so that it actually pushes the grounds around, a fitted tamper may only just sort of 'skirt' along the edges...
                                Doesn't need to be significantly undersized; 0.5mm clearance is plenty...

                                Mal.

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