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  • #31
    Not looking good naked

    Originally posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    Wynton, interested as to why you say declumping/distribution techniques are not a good idea? I often up end the basket into a small macchiato/large shot glass glass (they are a snug fit) to declump and find the grounds 'shrink' in size and noticeably are less clumped together.

    I have seen the WDT before and looks a bit cumbersome, even though many swear by it.

    I would assume the less fluffy grounds the better to reduce the amount of air pockets and potential channels?
    I don't think distribution techniques are bad per se, I'm sure it helps minimise channels but personally I prefer not as I want to minimise time between grinding and extracting as the grinds stale very quickly once ground. Also i can't be bothered and also I'm happy with my extractions with my current technique.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Wynton87 View Post
      I can't verify the science behind not dosing twice but my gut feeling is that you want to minimise how much you play with the grinds, I guess keeping them as fluffy and aerated as possible. I've heard a lot of people using lever machines get their best thickest syrupy shots when they hardly tamp, some don't even tamp, they just use the shower screen as a tamp. With that theory in mind I'm guessing tapping or tamping too much can amplify the density of any clumps and lead to channels. This might be unique to lever machines though. Just my experience.

      With regard to seeing baristas do certain things, I guess you have to remember that they will generally have high level grinders that give very fluffy and evenly distributed grinds anyway.

      As for distribution techniques and de-clumping, I don't like the idea because I feel you should get your grinds locked into the machine as quick as possible to maximise taste.

      You should definitely give you convex tamp a go! Report back!
      Yeah definitely not great to play with the grinds too much, but I think distribution is something pretty vital, and isn't talked about enough, with many other topics taking precedence. Those other topics are important absolutely (roast level, days rest, grinder, temp etc), but distribution (and tamping) is the last step before extraction, and to me matters the most, because it renders all those previous steps almost pointless really. If the actual ground coffee isn't distributed well and therefore isn't extracted properly, then it's a big variable that's being overlooked. But it depends, one may not have to focus as much on distribution due to the grinder and how well it doses and if it produces perfectly fluffy grinds.

      Yeah good point about high-end grinders and not having to worry about adding extra techniques!

      And yeah interesting you say about wanting to get the grinds in as quick as possible, will keep it in mind for sure.
      Originally posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
      Wynton, interested as to why you say declumping/distribution techniques are not a good idea? I often up end the basket into a small macchiato/large shot glass glass (they are a snug fit) to declump and find the grounds 'shrink' in size and noticeably are less clumped together.

      I have seen the WDT before and looks a bit cumbersome, even though many swear by it.

      I would assume the less fluffy grounds the better to reduce the amount of air pockets and potential channels?
      Yeah depends on the grinder I'd say. Some dose and even distribute well, not to mention fluffy grinds so no extra steps are necessary.

      WDT doesn't take too much longer than other techniques, I had a play with it today and was a bit slow, but I'm sure it can be sped up, will post results of my distribution experiment I did today soon!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Wynton87 View Post
        I can't verify the science behind not dosing twice but my gut feeling is that you want to minimise how much you play with the grinds, I guess keeping them as fluffy and aerated as possible. I've heard a lot of people using lever machines get their best thickest syrupy shots when they hardly tamp, some don't even tamp, they just use the shower screen as a tamp. With that theory in mind I'm guessing tapping or tamping too much can amplify the density of any clumps and lead to channels. This might be unique to lever machines though. Just my experience.

        With regard to seeing baristas do certain things, I guess you have to remember that they will generally have high level grinders that give very fluffy and evenly distributed grinds anyway.

        As for distribution techniques and de-clumping, I don't like the idea because I feel you should get your grinds locked into the machine as quick as possible to maximise taste.

        You should definitely give you convex tamp a go! Report back!
        G'day Wynton87

        As you can guess from my handle, I have spent a lot of years playing with tampers. I have quite a collection of concave, flat, US curved convex, Euro curved convex and even a "curved with flat centre" which was called a Scandinavian curve at the time.

        VST do not recommend anything except a flat tamper. Perger has his big step - which is the opposite of convex as it has an "outer ring step" with a flat base. I actually have two RB's - one US, one Euro curve. None of the "non flat" ones work properly in a VST, so to that extent Vince Fedele (VST founder) is correct. The only time a convex tamper has worked for me personally is when the distribution is poor (think clumps and static) or it is overdosed (a "far too common" CS technique it seems). OTOH, every time I find a site with a convex tamper I can improve their coffee using a flat tamp - even when the baskets and the machine is not what I regard as quality.

        I would suggest most CS'r's (i.e. those who do not overdose) stay well away from convex tampers as their Achilles heel is a strong tendency to channel and spray - obvious especially when using a naked p/f. Oh, and the extraction rate usually drops 2 to 3% as well, a sure sign that something is amiss.

        TampIt

        Comment


        • #34
          Interesting ok I'll take that on board tampit, so I should try distribution then. What if that deoesnt work then?

          Comment


          • #35
            I was thinking the same as above, how much coffee are you putting into your basket? If you use a vst or the like they can be particular about volume(changes with the density of the coffee you're using). Also what are your roasts like do you roast you're own coffee or are they from a regular supplier? Using underdeveloped roasts will guarantee difficult pours.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Jono_Willmer View Post
              I was thinking the same as above, how much coffee are you putting into your basket? If you use a vst or the like they can be particular about volume(changes with the density of the coffee you're using). Also what are your roasts like do you roast you're own coffee or are they from a regular supplier? Using underdeveloped roasts will guarantee difficult pours.
              Not sure if you're talking to me or Wynton87, but it's between 20.5g to 22g coffee depending on the bean. Certainly isn't overdosed nor does it seem under, but currently keep getting two streams of coffee that does eveeeeeentually go central haha.. at 18s some times, and 24s others... this was from using WDT too which I've been experimenting with.

              The thing is, the pour is just looking... outstanding after WDT. Even though it doesn't go central until a long time, the colouring is magnificent, and so thick and droopy, taste has varied, but the pour has slowed right down at times so may need to quicken it and try again. May be possible that it's too fine, and it's hard for the pour to come central...

              Then surely ristrettos would never come to a central pour, yet I think I've seen that occur... I'll put that out there too! When pulling a nice slow ristretto in a naked portafilter, does the pour go central? I shall experiment with that too.. really slow flowing shots would have trouble getting through the puck so may not reach a central agreement haha... all just theories anyways.

              Ah yes and the basket I'm using is a IMS/Pesado 20g precision basket, similar to VST i would think. In what way are they particular with the volume that's dosed? As in can't be too down/updosed?

              The roast has varied depending on the bean I'm trying, i haven't done a proper big roast in awhile, but I have used Ethiopia Harrar roasted by Andy, believe I got better pours with that, and currently using a Columbian Excelso bean which is more medium-dark roast, which I'm finding is quite clumpy (whether that's my grinder or the roast in not sure, as I've heard that darker roasts clump more potentially...)

              Edit: recently ordered a cheapo coffee distribution tool on eBay... had to give it a crack! Can't wait to have a play haha

              Comment


              • #37
                Try dosing a bit less or grinding a bit coarser and see what happens...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Wynton87 View Post
                  Interesting ok I'll take that on board tampit, so I should try distribution then. What if that deoesnt work then?
                  Firstly, I use VSTs exclusively these days. I would hope the IMS is a similar standard to the VST so this may help (I know EQ / HQ "precision baskets" are not). I have been using naked p/f's now for so long I cannot remember the start date reliably - sometime in the early '80's I think. I actually learnt about channeling using a naked (called "bottomless" at the time) in 1979 and after a couple of years my technique was good enough to pick up a consistent flavour advantage using a naked. I do not have any p/fs at home with a spout other than a spare one I don't use anyway from my second La Pav 2 group - it is a bit of a wreck due to severe mistreatment before I purchased it.

                  Dosing - I found that VSTs state (and require) a quite narrow dosing range, however I also have found a few machines where the upper end of that range was still impractical / too overdosed. VSTs really need a grind about one third finer than "standard espresso grind" (whatever that means - a moving target anyway).

                  Grinding - a number of commercial grinders will not grind well enough / fine enough to get a decent shot out of a VST within its rated dosage. In an extreme moment of curiosity I sieved / filtered their output and when the particle spread was even enough they became "VST friendly". We actually need a major grinder rethink IMO. FWIW, I use two Mahlkonig Varios at home - they work well with VSTs.

                  For 15 / 18 /20 /22g baskets I use a pair of fitted & tapered (i.e. the sides are the same slope as the side of the basket) Pullman 316 stainless Barista tampers. One is designed to get within 2mm of the bottom of the basket (pretamper) which I use for a very light tamp (barely more than the tamper weight). When I get anal and / or setting up a new system / roast from scratch I often lightly tamp every two mm of "coffee fluff" progressively. In all cases I use my final tamper for the last tamp - it would reach an absolute maximum of 5mm down into the basket, so I don't get any grounds scattering around inside the basket (I suspect that is a real shot killer, however I am not 100% convinced). Using such tightly fitted tampers with a Vario (no clumps, static or any other grinder snafu - which is why I bought a second one), I do not do any distribution technique at all - it effectively bypasses the need for them.

                  Previously I used to do a nutating tamp (just like dimal). Before that I used all the common ones mentioned (Staub, WDT, NSEW and even briefly a "tap p/f hard and then use a convex tamper once @ 30lbs ala Schomer"). BTW, I reckon any tapping after the first tamp is an absolute no-no. These days I only do a distribution technique if I encounter foreign baskets (which do not fit my tampers), a poor grinder (too often), or if I do not have my tampers with me for some reason (unplanned coffee foray).

                  Hope this helps


                  TampIt

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Tampit, No P/F with spouts?
                    I have been thinking that too, however, what if you use a big triple (4 shot) basket and want to split the shot to make 2 doubles.
                    That is why I think I wnat to keep a P/F with a spout.
                    Hence, my new SS 6910 P/F will stay with a spout.

                    Re the tamper that "doesn't fit", I think the lugs are about 1 mm longer than the later ones. This one was build date Dec 2007 (527), so a little newer than mine that is Sept 2007.
                    Doesn't make sense, but there you go, I might take a little off the lugs and see what happens!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
                      Not sure if you're talking to me or Wynton87, but it's between 20.5g to 22g coffee depending on the bean. Certainly isn't overdosed nor does it seem under, but currently keep getting two streams of coffee that does eveeeeeentually go central haha.. at 18s some times, and 24s others... this was from using WDT too which I've been experimenting with.

                      The thing is, the pour is just looking... outstanding after WDT. Even though it doesn't go central until a long time, the colouring is magnificent, and so thick and droopy, taste has varied, but the pour has slowed right down at times so may need to quicken it and try again. May be possible that it's too fine, and it's hard for the pour to come central...

                      Then surely ristrettos would never come to a central pour, yet I think I've seen that occur... I'll put that out there too! When pulling a nice slow ristretto in a naked portafilter, does the pour go central? I shall experiment with that too.. really slow flowing shots would have trouble getting through the puck so may not reach a central agreement haha... all just theories anyways.

                      Ah yes and the basket I'm using is a IMS/Pesado 20g precision basket, similar to VST i would think. In what way are they particular with the volume that's dosed? As in can't be too down/updosed?

                      The roast has varied depending on the bean I'm trying, i haven't done a proper big roast in awhile, but I have used Ethiopia Harrar roasted by Andy, believe I got better pours with that, and currently using a Columbian Excelso bean which is more medium-dark roast, which I'm finding is quite clumpy (whether that's my grinder or the roast in not sure, as I've heard that darker roasts clump more potentially...)

                      Edit: recently ordered a cheapo coffee distribution tool on eBay... had to give it a crack! Can't wait to have a play haha
                      I recently bought a roasted coffee that I roast at home to see how it compares and I've struggled to get the pour close to acceptable using my Mythos 1 grinder and it is so frustrating because there is only so much you can do before you realise this coffee is never going to work well. I just end up throwing it out or grinding it for pour over.

                      Sounds like you're on the right track, I've found the OCD a help to my routine so I'm sure you'll get good results from the distribution tool you've bought.

                      One suggestion I have is try and keep the dose the same each extraction(of the current bean you're using), this will help you dial in your grind better, otherwise you'll only ever reach an average with your grind, you'll see an improvement in taste and over time it will help you to adjust grind settings quickly to taste.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                        Firstly, I use VSTs exclusively these days. I would hope the IMS is a similar standard to the VST so this may help (I know EQ / HQ "precision baskets" are not). I have been using naked p/f's now for so long I cannot remember the start date reliably - sometime in the early '80's I think. I actually learnt about channeling using a naked (called "bottomless" at the time) in 1979 and after a couple of years my technique was good enough to pick up a consistent flavour advantage using a naked. I do not have any p/fs at home with a spout other than a spare one I don't use anyway from my second La Pav 2 group - it is a bit of a wreck due to severe mistreatment before I purchased it.

                        Dosing - I found that VSTs state (and require) a quite narrow dosing range, however I also have found a few machines where the upper end of that range was still impractical / too overdosed. VSTs really need a grind about one third finer than "standard espresso grind" (whatever that means - a moving target anyway).

                        Grinding - a number of commercial grinders will not grind well enough / fine enough to get a decent shot out of a VST within its rated dosage. In an extreme moment of curiosity I sieved / filtered their output and when the particle spread was even enough they became "VST friendly". We actually need a major grinder rethink IMO. FWIW, I use two Mahlkonig Varios at home - they work well with VSTs.

                        For 15 / 18 /20 /22g baskets I use a pair of fitted & tapered (i.e. the sides are the same slope as the side of the basket) Pullman 316 stainless Barista tampers. One is designed to get within 2mm of the bottom of the basket (pretamper) which I use for a very light tamp (barely more than the tamper weight). When I get anal and / or setting up a new system / roast from scratch I often lightly tamp every two mm of "coffee fluff" progressively. In all cases I use my final tamper for the last tamp - it would reach an absolute maximum of 5mm down into the basket, so I don't get any grounds scattering around inside the basket (I suspect that is a real shot killer, however I am not 100% convinced). Using such tightly fitted tampers with a Vario (no clumps, static or any other grinder snafu - which is why I bought a second one), I do not do any distribution technique at all - it effectively bypasses the need for them.

                        Previously I used to do a nutating tamp (just like dimal). Before that I used all the common ones mentioned (Staub, WDT, NSEW and even briefly a "tap p/f hard and then use a convex tamper once @ 30lbs ala Schomer"). BTW, I reckon any tapping after the first tamp is an absolute no-no. These days I only do a distribution technique if I encounter foreign baskets (which do not fit my tampers), a poor grinder (too often), or if I do not have my tampers with me for some reason (unplanned coffee foray).

                        Hope this helps


                        TampIt
                        If I can remove the convex tamp from my routine I'd be pretty stoked. Currently I use a vario and yeh elektra 18gr basket in my Cremina and I does about 16gr into it. I have a custom flat tamper, but if I use that alone I get bad donut channeling. So what are you suggesting I do differently? Given that I can't use VST baskets.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MrJack View Post
                          Try dosing a bit less or grinding a bit coarser and see what happens...
                          Yeah definitely am going to try that... it's strange.. I wonder if the flow is too slow that things just get more trapped and find it hard to come together in a central pour...
                          Originally posted by TampIt View Post
                          Firstly, I use VSTs exclusively these days. I would hope the IMS is a similar standard to the VST so this may help (I know EQ / HQ "precision baskets" are not). I have been using naked p/f's now for so long I cannot remember the start date reliably - sometime in the early '80's I think. I actually learnt about channeling using a naked (called "bottomless" at the time) in 1979 and after a couple of years my technique was good enough to pick up a consistent flavour advantage using a naked. I do not have any p/fs at home with a spout other than a spare one I don't use anyway from my second La Pav 2 group - it is a bit of a wreck due to severe mistreatment before I purchased it.

                          Dosing - I found that VSTs state (and require) a quite narrow dosing range, however I also have found a few machines where the upper end of that range was still impractical / too overdosed. VSTs really need a grind about one third finer than "standard espresso grind" (whatever that means - a moving target anyway).

                          Grinding - a number of commercial grinders will not grind well enough / fine enough to get a decent shot out of a VST within its rated dosage. In an extreme moment of curiosity I sieved / filtered their output and when the particle spread was even enough they became "VST friendly". We actually need a major grinder rethink IMO. FWIW, I use two Mahlkonig Varios at home - they work well with VSTs.

                          For 15 / 18 /20 /22g baskets I use a pair of fitted & tapered (i.e. the sides are the same slope as the side of the basket) Pullman 316 stainless Barista tampers. One is designed to get within 2mm of the bottom of the basket (pretamper) which I use for a very light tamp (barely more than the tamper weight). When I get anal and / or setting up a new system / roast from scratch I often lightly tamp every two mm of "coffee fluff" progressively. In all cases I use my final tamper for the last tamp - it would reach an absolute maximum of 5mm down into the basket, so I don't get any grounds scattering around inside the basket (I suspect that is a real shot killer, however I am not 100% convinced). Using such tightly fitted tampers with a Vario (no clumps, static or any other grinder snafu - which is why I bought a second one), I do not do any distribution technique at all - it effectively bypasses the need for them.

                          Previously I used to do a nutating tamp (just like dimal). Before that I used all the common ones mentioned (Staub, WDT, NSEW and even briefly a "tap p/f hard and then use a convex tamper once @ 30lbs ala Schomer"). BTW, I reckon any tapping after the first tamp is an absolute no-no. These days I only do a distribution technique if I encounter foreign baskets (which do not fit my tampers), a poor grinder (too often), or if I do not have my tampers with me for some reason (unplanned coffee foray).

                          Hope this helps


                          TampIt
                          Great post TampIt. I may even try going from the Pesado/IMS basket to the standard one that came with the naked, and see what happens!
                          Originally posted by Jono_Willmer View Post
                          I recently bought a roasted coffee that I roast at home to see how it compares and I've struggled to get the pour close to acceptable using my Mythos 1 grinder and it is so frustrating because there is only so much you can do before you realise this coffee is never going to work well. I just end up throwing it out or grinding it for pour over.

                          Sounds like you're on the right track, I've found the OCD a help to my routine so I'm sure you'll get good results from the distribution tool you've bought.

                          One suggestion I have is try and keep the dose the same each extraction(of the current bean you're using), this will help you dial in your grind better, otherwise you'll only ever reach an average with your grind, you'll see an improvement in taste and over time it will help you to adjust grind settings quickly to taste.
                          Yeah for sure, yeah i have been keeping dose very consistent for every shot, but the grinder steps are far too large it seems, so I only can change grind setting if it's a drastic change that needs to happen, otherwise altering dose is what I need to do.

                          And yeah very interesting about the roasted beans from elsewhere... I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the input everyone, has been very helpful so far!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rawill View Post
                            Tampit, No P/F with spouts?
                            I have been thinking that too, however, what if you use a big triple (4 shot) basket and want to split the shot to make 2 doubles.
                            That is why I think I wnat to keep a P/F with a spout.
                            Hence, my new SS 6910 P/F will stay with a spout.
                            G'day again rawill

                            Simply divide that 4 shot into two separate 15g shots. Still no spouts needed. I still have an unbranded 28g quad basket, rarely used these days as I usually do two doubles instead.

                            The other (elephant in the room) issue is extraction ratio - which is really a measurement of flavour whack, not directly related to taste. Trad baskets (like my 28g) extract at about 16% when optimised for taste, VSTs often get about 23 to 24% with my Vario (about 21% with my EM480). That means my 22g VST actually delivers more flavour out of less coffee than the big quad basket even when I used my 480's (do the math). So we really need about a 10 to 11g VST basket to cover the middle range for some roasts. FWIW, I normally use a 7g single in my naked - given a decent, fresh (however always "post green smell") light to medium SO roast it has plenty of flavour whack and remains some of my best tasting coffee ever. Friends and family agree on that one. Interestingly enough, Jim Schulman has reached a similar conclusion - singles are creamier and sweeter when optimised and have no loss of flavour even as an espresso (well, they do have less volume than a double, however anything above "plenty of flavour" is not relevant).

                            Originally posted by rawill View Post
                            Re the tamper that "doesn't fit", I think the lugs are about 1 mm longer than the later ones. This one was build date Dec 2007 (527), so a little newer than mine that is Sept 2007.
                            Doesn't make sense, but there you go, I might take a little off the lugs and see what happens!
                            You are right, it doesn't make sense - I hope you are meaning a p/f not a tamper...

                            I have a new 6900 collar - it has slightly longer "lugholes" so your "find" may be a 6910 with a 6900 p/f. Check it against your other p/fs and grind away if it is longer (from the trailing edge is probably better). If not, please PM me before you attack it. Please provide me with the exact measurements of the ill fitting beast and I will check it against my 6900 collar and 6910 p/fs.

                            TampIt

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Wynton87 View Post
                              If I can remove the convex tamp from my routine I'd be pretty stoked. Currently I use a vario and yeh elektra 18gr basket in my Cremina and I does about 16gr into it. I have a custom flat tamper, but if I use that alone I get bad donut channeling. So what are you suggesting I do differently? Given that I can't use VST baskets.
                              G'day again Wynton87

                              As a previous manual lever Electra owner - for 15+ years, I feel your pain. Non VST: that is exactly why I did not replace my Electra (divorce casualty) when I returned to Oz. I also used a friend's Cremina (great engineering, loved it) for a few weeks at one point.

                              The only time I managed donut channeling in either manual lever was when the grind was too coarse, dose too low* and/or I was too gungho on the lever pull. Mostly it was grind (or maybe I just learnt by stuffing up a few "over pulled shots"). I cannot recall ever having a distribution issue with either machine when fed by my Major grinder (big flat burr beastie - no match for the Vario at "VST sub espresso grinds", but close at "normal espresso grinds"). Oh, just like all my machines, I did convert the Electra to a naked so the pour impressions are accurate.

                              So I would try grinding finer - and your Vario (if it is a gen2 or gen3) is outstanding at finer grinds - and dosing to basket spec by weight.

                              TampIt
                              dose too low*: I just reread your thread - every time I underdosed the 18g Electra basket the coffee pour went to schlock. I couldn't get 17g to work, so I am 90% certain your 16g would be a fail anyway (donut channeling or not).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Try watching some slow motion espresso shots on youtube (you can slow them down further with the video settings). Even for shots that look very even at normal speed, the espresso almost always appears at the outer edge of the basket first when you see it in slow motion.

                                I have a few ideas as to why this happens in espresso pours (relating in part to basket shape and grinds distribution). It is consistent with studies of flow in other kinds of packed beds, which typically show higher velocity flow at the perimeter and mostly uniform velocity everywhere else (unlike laminar flow in a pipe, which is fastest in the centre).

                                In my experience it is exacerbated in very tight pours - so I would expect grinding finer, over-dosing and very firm tamping would make this worse. Slower flow is the result of greater resistance (also caused by those three factors), hence the correlation between the two.

                                The flow outside of the basket is dominated by the competing effects of gravity, viscosity and surface tension. If there is not sufficient (or any) flow through the centre of the puck (relative to at the perimeter), then the stream won't come together in the centre.


                                Edit: Here is one I prepared earlier...
                                Last edited by MrJack; 2 September 2017, 04:27 PM. Reason: Added video.

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