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  • simonsk8r
    replied
    After much experimentation... and lowering the dose to get a normal 1:2 ratio shot, WDT just seems to dominate...

    Am just getting really great results using it.. It's not too much extra time taken, but I'd like to find a way to get the workflow faster if anyone who uses it has any suggestions.

    When I try to pull a double ristretto it doesn't seem to get want to come to a central pour (by double ristretto I'm talking a 1:1 ratio, ending it at about 35 seconds), but it just didn't seem to matter tastewise. Using WDT and the shot just looked fantastic, and tasted incredible.

    Changing back to a coarser grind and getting a 1:2 ratio it went central fairly early into the pour.

    Anyways, am loving the results of using WDT (after MANY years of me saying, "no no, I never want to go that far" haha).

    I'm also realising that distribution doesn't necessarily have to be set in stone, and needs to be flexible based on the coffee. The previous bean I used I didn't need to do WDT, but this bean which is a medium-dark roast it has been helping heaps.

    I reckon the skill of the barista is to note and adapt to these changes, and I think the intuitive and art aspect of coffee comes into it. For awhile I kept getting stuck in certain models or ways of believing I had to do things, but I'm thinking there is no 'one size fits all' distribution technique. It really really really depends on the bean and those particular conditions!

    Leave a comment:


  • simonsk8r
    replied
    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
    Try watching some slow motion espresso shots on youtube (you can slow them down further with the video settings). Even for shots that look very even at normal speed, the espresso almost always appears at the outer edge of the basket first when you see it in slow motion.

    I have a few ideas as to why this happens in espresso pours (relating in part to basket shape and grinds distribution). It is consistent with studies of flow in other kinds of packed beds, which typically show higher velocity flow at the perimeter and mostly uniform velocity everywhere else (unlike laminar flow in a pipe, which is fastest in the centre).

    In my experience it is exacerbated in very tight pours - so I would expect grinding finer, over-dosing and very firm tamping would make this worse. Slower flow is the result of greater resistance (also caused by those three factors), hence the correlation between the two.

    The flow outside of the basket is dominated by the competing effects of gravity, viscosity and surface tension. If there is not sufficient (or any) flow through the centre of the puck (relative to at the perimeter), then the stream won't come together in the centre.


    Edit: Here is one I prepared earlier...
    Ah great post, and good to know, thanks MrJack!! Yeah must be more variables involved for sure... what are your thoughts on clumping, and whether that has any effect on density within the basket? You would think that any clumps would be 'tamped out' when tamping, but not too sure, seems like clumps are still high density/concentrated balls within the puck that may not get squashed or spread out during tamping... and I'm really thinking clumping affects how well you can effectively distribut too... (ie how the grinds move around/slot around each other when tapping the side of the basket for example...)

    And awesome vid! Watched that awhile ago, didn't realise it was yours! Really cool to see that the flow still starts around the edges.

    Originally posted by Yelta View Post
    Now for something completely different, still naked

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOgd9hitEAE
    Hahaha what the! Love it... Still on topic, still on topic [emoji14]

    Leave a comment:


  • artman
    replied
    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
    Edit: Here is one I prepared earlier...
    Looks delicious!!

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:


  • Yelta
    replied
    Now for something completely different, still naked

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOgd9hitEAE

    Leave a comment:


  • MrJack
    replied
    Try watching some slow motion espresso shots on youtube (you can slow them down further with the video settings). Even for shots that look very even at normal speed, the espresso almost always appears at the outer edge of the basket first when you see it in slow motion.

    I have a few ideas as to why this happens in espresso pours (relating in part to basket shape and grinds distribution). It is consistent with studies of flow in other kinds of packed beds, which typically show higher velocity flow at the perimeter and mostly uniform velocity everywhere else (unlike laminar flow in a pipe, which is fastest in the centre).

    In my experience it is exacerbated in very tight pours - so I would expect grinding finer, over-dosing and very firm tamping would make this worse. Slower flow is the result of greater resistance (also caused by those three factors), hence the correlation between the two.

    The flow outside of the basket is dominated by the competing effects of gravity, viscosity and surface tension. If there is not sufficient (or any) flow through the centre of the puck (relative to at the perimeter), then the stream won't come together in the centre.


    Edit: Here is one I prepared earlier...
    Last edited by MrJack; 2 September 2017, 04:27 PM. Reason: Added video.

    Leave a comment:


  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by Wynton87 View Post
    If I can remove the convex tamp from my routine I'd be pretty stoked. Currently I use a vario and yeh elektra 18gr basket in my Cremina and I does about 16gr into it. I have a custom flat tamper, but if I use that alone I get bad donut channeling. So what are you suggesting I do differently? Given that I can't use VST baskets.
    G'day again Wynton87

    As a previous manual lever Electra owner - for 15+ years, I feel your pain. Non VST: that is exactly why I did not replace my Electra (divorce casualty) when I returned to Oz. I also used a friend's Cremina (great engineering, loved it) for a few weeks at one point.

    The only time I managed donut channeling in either manual lever was when the grind was too coarse, dose too low* and/or I was too gungho on the lever pull. Mostly it was grind (or maybe I just learnt by stuffing up a few "over pulled shots"). I cannot recall ever having a distribution issue with either machine when fed by my Major grinder (big flat burr beastie - no match for the Vario at "VST sub espresso grinds", but close at "normal espresso grinds"). Oh, just like all my machines, I did convert the Electra to a naked so the pour impressions are accurate.

    So I would try grinding finer - and your Vario (if it is a gen2 or gen3) is outstanding at finer grinds - and dosing to basket spec by weight.

    TampIt
    dose too low*: I just reread your thread - every time I underdosed the 18g Electra basket the coffee pour went to schlock. I couldn't get 17g to work, so I am 90% certain your 16g would be a fail anyway (donut channeling or not).

    Leave a comment:


  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by rawill View Post
    Tampit, No P/F with spouts?
    I have been thinking that too, however, what if you use a big triple (4 shot) basket and want to split the shot to make 2 doubles.
    That is why I think I wnat to keep a P/F with a spout.
    Hence, my new SS 6910 P/F will stay with a spout.
    G'day again rawill

    Simply divide that 4 shot into two separate 15g shots. Still no spouts needed. I still have an unbranded 28g quad basket, rarely used these days as I usually do two doubles instead.

    The other (elephant in the room) issue is extraction ratio - which is really a measurement of flavour whack, not directly related to taste. Trad baskets (like my 28g) extract at about 16% when optimised for taste, VSTs often get about 23 to 24% with my Vario (about 21% with my EM480). That means my 22g VST actually delivers more flavour out of less coffee than the big quad basket even when I used my 480's (do the math). So we really need about a 10 to 11g VST basket to cover the middle range for some roasts. FWIW, I normally use a 7g single in my naked - given a decent, fresh (however always "post green smell") light to medium SO roast it has plenty of flavour whack and remains some of my best tasting coffee ever. Friends and family agree on that one. Interestingly enough, Jim Schulman has reached a similar conclusion - singles are creamier and sweeter when optimised and have no loss of flavour even as an espresso (well, they do have less volume than a double, however anything above "plenty of flavour" is not relevant).

    Originally posted by rawill View Post
    Re the tamper that "doesn't fit", I think the lugs are about 1 mm longer than the later ones. This one was build date Dec 2007 (527), so a little newer than mine that is Sept 2007.
    Doesn't make sense, but there you go, I might take a little off the lugs and see what happens!
    You are right, it doesn't make sense - I hope you are meaning a p/f not a tamper...

    I have a new 6900 collar - it has slightly longer "lugholes" so your "find" may be a 6910 with a 6900 p/f. Check it against your other p/fs and grind away if it is longer (from the trailing edge is probably better). If not, please PM me before you attack it. Please provide me with the exact measurements of the ill fitting beast and I will check it against my 6900 collar and 6910 p/fs.

    TampIt

    Leave a comment:


  • simonsk8r
    replied
    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
    Try dosing a bit less or grinding a bit coarser and see what happens...
    Yeah definitely am going to try that... it's strange.. I wonder if the flow is too slow that things just get more trapped and find it hard to come together in a central pour...
    Originally posted by TampIt View Post
    Firstly, I use VSTs exclusively these days. I would hope the IMS is a similar standard to the VST so this may help (I know EQ / HQ "precision baskets" are not). I have been using naked p/f's now for so long I cannot remember the start date reliably - sometime in the early '80's I think. I actually learnt about channeling using a naked (called "bottomless" at the time) in 1979 and after a couple of years my technique was good enough to pick up a consistent flavour advantage using a naked. I do not have any p/fs at home with a spout other than a spare one I don't use anyway from my second La Pav 2 group - it is a bit of a wreck due to severe mistreatment before I purchased it.

    Dosing - I found that VSTs state (and require) a quite narrow dosing range, however I also have found a few machines where the upper end of that range was still impractical / too overdosed. VSTs really need a grind about one third finer than "standard espresso grind" (whatever that means - a moving target anyway).

    Grinding - a number of commercial grinders will not grind well enough / fine enough to get a decent shot out of a VST within its rated dosage. In an extreme moment of curiosity I sieved / filtered their output and when the particle spread was even enough they became "VST friendly". We actually need a major grinder rethink IMO. FWIW, I use two Mahlkonig Varios at home - they work well with VSTs.

    For 15 / 18 /20 /22g baskets I use a pair of fitted & tapered (i.e. the sides are the same slope as the side of the basket) Pullman 316 stainless Barista tampers. One is designed to get within 2mm of the bottom of the basket (pretamper) which I use for a very light tamp (barely more than the tamper weight). When I get anal and / or setting up a new system / roast from scratch I often lightly tamp every two mm of "coffee fluff" progressively. In all cases I use my final tamper for the last tamp - it would reach an absolute maximum of 5mm down into the basket, so I don't get any grounds scattering around inside the basket (I suspect that is a real shot killer, however I am not 100% convinced). Using such tightly fitted tampers with a Vario (no clumps, static or any other grinder snafu - which is why I bought a second one), I do not do any distribution technique at all - it effectively bypasses the need for them.

    Previously I used to do a nutating tamp (just like dimal). Before that I used all the common ones mentioned (Staub, WDT, NSEW and even briefly a "tap p/f hard and then use a convex tamper once @ 30lbs ala Schomer"). BTW, I reckon any tapping after the first tamp is an absolute no-no. These days I only do a distribution technique if I encounter foreign baskets (which do not fit my tampers), a poor grinder (too often), or if I do not have my tampers with me for some reason (unplanned coffee foray).

    Hope this helps


    TampIt
    Great post TampIt. I may even try going from the Pesado/IMS basket to the standard one that came with the naked, and see what happens!
    Originally posted by Jono_Willmer View Post
    I recently bought a roasted coffee that I roast at home to see how it compares and I've struggled to get the pour close to acceptable using my Mythos 1 grinder and it is so frustrating because there is only so much you can do before you realise this coffee is never going to work well. I just end up throwing it out or grinding it for pour over.

    Sounds like you're on the right track, I've found the OCD a help to my routine so I'm sure you'll get good results from the distribution tool you've bought.

    One suggestion I have is try and keep the dose the same each extraction(of the current bean you're using), this will help you dial in your grind better, otherwise you'll only ever reach an average with your grind, you'll see an improvement in taste and over time it will help you to adjust grind settings quickly to taste.
    Yeah for sure, yeah i have been keeping dose very consistent for every shot, but the grinder steps are far too large it seems, so I only can change grind setting if it's a drastic change that needs to happen, otherwise altering dose is what I need to do.

    And yeah very interesting about the roasted beans from elsewhere... I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the input everyone, has been very helpful so far!

    Leave a comment:


  • Wynton87
    replied
    Originally posted by TampIt View Post
    Firstly, I use VSTs exclusively these days. I would hope the IMS is a similar standard to the VST so this may help (I know EQ / HQ "precision baskets" are not). I have been using naked p/f's now for so long I cannot remember the start date reliably - sometime in the early '80's I think. I actually learnt about channeling using a naked (called "bottomless" at the time) in 1979 and after a couple of years my technique was good enough to pick up a consistent flavour advantage using a naked. I do not have any p/fs at home with a spout other than a spare one I don't use anyway from my second La Pav 2 group - it is a bit of a wreck due to severe mistreatment before I purchased it.

    Dosing - I found that VSTs state (and require) a quite narrow dosing range, however I also have found a few machines where the upper end of that range was still impractical / too overdosed. VSTs really need a grind about one third finer than "standard espresso grind" (whatever that means - a moving target anyway).

    Grinding - a number of commercial grinders will not grind well enough / fine enough to get a decent shot out of a VST within its rated dosage. In an extreme moment of curiosity I sieved / filtered their output and when the particle spread was even enough they became "VST friendly". We actually need a major grinder rethink IMO. FWIW, I use two Mahlkonig Varios at home - they work well with VSTs.

    For 15 / 18 /20 /22g baskets I use a pair of fitted & tapered (i.e. the sides are the same slope as the side of the basket) Pullman 316 stainless Barista tampers. One is designed to get within 2mm of the bottom of the basket (pretamper) which I use for a very light tamp (barely more than the tamper weight). When I get anal and / or setting up a new system / roast from scratch I often lightly tamp every two mm of "coffee fluff" progressively. In all cases I use my final tamper for the last tamp - it would reach an absolute maximum of 5mm down into the basket, so I don't get any grounds scattering around inside the basket (I suspect that is a real shot killer, however I am not 100% convinced). Using such tightly fitted tampers with a Vario (no clumps, static or any other grinder snafu - which is why I bought a second one), I do not do any distribution technique at all - it effectively bypasses the need for them.

    Previously I used to do a nutating tamp (just like dimal). Before that I used all the common ones mentioned (Staub, WDT, NSEW and even briefly a "tap p/f hard and then use a convex tamper once @ 30lbs ala Schomer"). BTW, I reckon any tapping after the first tamp is an absolute no-no. These days I only do a distribution technique if I encounter foreign baskets (which do not fit my tampers), a poor grinder (too often), or if I do not have my tampers with me for some reason (unplanned coffee foray).

    Hope this helps


    TampIt
    If I can remove the convex tamp from my routine I'd be pretty stoked. Currently I use a vario and yeh elektra 18gr basket in my Cremina and I does about 16gr into it. I have a custom flat tamper, but if I use that alone I get bad donut channeling. So what are you suggesting I do differently? Given that I can't use VST baskets.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jono_Willmer
    replied
    Originally posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Not sure if you're talking to me or Wynton87, but it's between 20.5g to 22g coffee depending on the bean. Certainly isn't overdosed nor does it seem under, but currently keep getting two streams of coffee that does eveeeeeentually go central haha.. at 18s some times, and 24s others... this was from using WDT too which I've been experimenting with.

    The thing is, the pour is just looking... outstanding after WDT. Even though it doesn't go central until a long time, the colouring is magnificent, and so thick and droopy, taste has varied, but the pour has slowed right down at times so may need to quicken it and try again. May be possible that it's too fine, and it's hard for the pour to come central...

    Then surely ristrettos would never come to a central pour, yet I think I've seen that occur... I'll put that out there too! When pulling a nice slow ristretto in a naked portafilter, does the pour go central? I shall experiment with that too.. really slow flowing shots would have trouble getting through the puck so may not reach a central agreement haha... all just theories anyways.

    Ah yes and the basket I'm using is a IMS/Pesado 20g precision basket, similar to VST i would think. In what way are they particular with the volume that's dosed? As in can't be too down/updosed?

    The roast has varied depending on the bean I'm trying, i haven't done a proper big roast in awhile, but I have used Ethiopia Harrar roasted by Andy, believe I got better pours with that, and currently using a Columbian Excelso bean which is more medium-dark roast, which I'm finding is quite clumpy (whether that's my grinder or the roast in not sure, as I've heard that darker roasts clump more potentially...)

    Edit: recently ordered a cheapo coffee distribution tool on eBay... had to give it a crack! Can't wait to have a play haha
    I recently bought a roasted coffee that I roast at home to see how it compares and I've struggled to get the pour close to acceptable using my Mythos 1 grinder and it is so frustrating because there is only so much you can do before you realise this coffee is never going to work well. I just end up throwing it out or grinding it for pour over.

    Sounds like you're on the right track, I've found the OCD a help to my routine so I'm sure you'll get good results from the distribution tool you've bought.

    One suggestion I have is try and keep the dose the same each extraction(of the current bean you're using), this will help you dial in your grind better, otherwise you'll only ever reach an average with your grind, you'll see an improvement in taste and over time it will help you to adjust grind settings quickly to taste.

    Leave a comment:


  • rawill
    replied
    Tampit, No P/F with spouts?
    I have been thinking that too, however, what if you use a big triple (4 shot) basket and want to split the shot to make 2 doubles.
    That is why I think I wnat to keep a P/F with a spout.
    Hence, my new SS 6910 P/F will stay with a spout.

    Re the tamper that "doesn't fit", I think the lugs are about 1 mm longer than the later ones. This one was build date Dec 2007 (527), so a little newer than mine that is Sept 2007.
    Doesn't make sense, but there you go, I might take a little off the lugs and see what happens!

    Leave a comment:


  • TampIt
    replied
    Originally posted by Wynton87 View Post
    Interesting ok I'll take that on board tampit, so I should try distribution then. What if that deoesnt work then?
    Firstly, I use VSTs exclusively these days. I would hope the IMS is a similar standard to the VST so this may help (I know EQ / HQ "precision baskets" are not). I have been using naked p/f's now for so long I cannot remember the start date reliably - sometime in the early '80's I think. I actually learnt about channeling using a naked (called "bottomless" at the time) in 1979 and after a couple of years my technique was good enough to pick up a consistent flavour advantage using a naked. I do not have any p/fs at home with a spout other than a spare one I don't use anyway from my second La Pav 2 group - it is a bit of a wreck due to severe mistreatment before I purchased it.

    Dosing - I found that VSTs state (and require) a quite narrow dosing range, however I also have found a few machines where the upper end of that range was still impractical / too overdosed. VSTs really need a grind about one third finer than "standard espresso grind" (whatever that means - a moving target anyway).

    Grinding - a number of commercial grinders will not grind well enough / fine enough to get a decent shot out of a VST within its rated dosage. In an extreme moment of curiosity I sieved / filtered their output and when the particle spread was even enough they became "VST friendly". We actually need a major grinder rethink IMO. FWIW, I use two Mahlkonig Varios at home - they work well with VSTs.

    For 15 / 18 /20 /22g baskets I use a pair of fitted & tapered (i.e. the sides are the same slope as the side of the basket) Pullman 316 stainless Barista tampers. One is designed to get within 2mm of the bottom of the basket (pretamper) which I use for a very light tamp (barely more than the tamper weight). When I get anal and / or setting up a new system / roast from scratch I often lightly tamp every two mm of "coffee fluff" progressively. In all cases I use my final tamper for the last tamp - it would reach an absolute maximum of 5mm down into the basket, so I don't get any grounds scattering around inside the basket (I suspect that is a real shot killer, however I am not 100% convinced). Using such tightly fitted tampers with a Vario (no clumps, static or any other grinder snafu - which is why I bought a second one), I do not do any distribution technique at all - it effectively bypasses the need for them.

    Previously I used to do a nutating tamp (just like dimal). Before that I used all the common ones mentioned (Staub, WDT, NSEW and even briefly a "tap p/f hard and then use a convex tamper once @ 30lbs ala Schomer"). BTW, I reckon any tapping after the first tamp is an absolute no-no. These days I only do a distribution technique if I encounter foreign baskets (which do not fit my tampers), a poor grinder (too often), or if I do not have my tampers with me for some reason (unplanned coffee foray).

    Hope this helps


    TampIt

    Leave a comment:


  • MrJack
    replied
    Try dosing a bit less or grinding a bit coarser and see what happens...

    Leave a comment:


  • simonsk8r
    replied
    Originally posted by Jono_Willmer View Post
    I was thinking the same as above, how much coffee are you putting into your basket? If you use a vst or the like they can be particular about volume(changes with the density of the coffee you're using). Also what are your roasts like do you roast you're own coffee or are they from a regular supplier? Using underdeveloped roasts will guarantee difficult pours.
    Not sure if you're talking to me or Wynton87, but it's between 20.5g to 22g coffee depending on the bean. Certainly isn't overdosed nor does it seem under, but currently keep getting two streams of coffee that does eveeeeeentually go central haha.. at 18s some times, and 24s others... this was from using WDT too which I've been experimenting with.

    The thing is, the pour is just looking... outstanding after WDT. Even though it doesn't go central until a long time, the colouring is magnificent, and so thick and droopy, taste has varied, but the pour has slowed right down at times so may need to quicken it and try again. May be possible that it's too fine, and it's hard for the pour to come central...

    Then surely ristrettos would never come to a central pour, yet I think I've seen that occur... I'll put that out there too! When pulling a nice slow ristretto in a naked portafilter, does the pour go central? I shall experiment with that too.. really slow flowing shots would have trouble getting through the puck so may not reach a central agreement haha... all just theories anyways.

    Ah yes and the basket I'm using is a IMS/Pesado 20g precision basket, similar to VST i would think. In what way are they particular with the volume that's dosed? As in can't be too down/updosed?

    The roast has varied depending on the bean I'm trying, i haven't done a proper big roast in awhile, but I have used Ethiopia Harrar roasted by Andy, believe I got better pours with that, and currently using a Columbian Excelso bean which is more medium-dark roast, which I'm finding is quite clumpy (whether that's my grinder or the roast in not sure, as I've heard that darker roasts clump more potentially...)

    Edit: recently ordered a cheapo coffee distribution tool on eBay... had to give it a crack! Can't wait to have a play haha

    Leave a comment:


  • Jono_Willmer
    replied
    I was thinking the same as above, how much coffee are you putting into your basket? If you use a vst or the like they can be particular about volume(changes with the density of the coffee you're using). Also what are your roasts like do you roast you're own coffee or are they from a regular supplier? Using underdeveloped roasts will guarantee difficult pours.

    Leave a comment:

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