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  • Smee
    replied
    Certainly some interesting thoughts there, thanks for sharing them.

    I think lupus's idea of a group or association where cafes join, train and promote themselves couldn't hurt and might just help educate those out there that think just because they bought machine x & bean y that they're all that. It's a pity that there's not more good places than there are bad ones.

    Such is life I guess.

    Leave a comment:


  • Smee
    replied
    Originally posted by Yelta View Post
    Certainly not in my opinion Smee, seems some people are struck action-less unless there is a set of rules to guide them

    Australia is rapidly becoming a nanny state, cant move without being regulated by some bylaw.
    Australia nanny state: Have we become a nation of idiots?
    "You can ride a bike without a helmet in Europe, and you are trusted not to fall off (similarly, drivers are trusted not to run into you). You can wander freely onto public transport, and you are trusted to buy a ticket. You can drink a beer in the park, or on the pavement outside a bar, and you're trusted not to act like a drunken fool.

    You can't do those things in Australia because we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules, and we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules because there are some people out there who really need to be nannied. We don't all need it. But we have to put up with it because others do."


    I'm sure the cafe industry is well covered by health regulations, as far as defining by law how a cup of coffee should be made, way over the top as far as I'm concerned

    Why not self regulate, simple, don't like the coffee? don't return, easy, poor operators don't last long, the word spreads quickly.

    "Professional accreditation would be a fantastic step IMO." I always smile at this, (professional barista) bit like a professional sandwich maker or a professional lollipop person.

    To underscore the point, here's a professional Lollipop man who has been affected by the nanny state.
    Funny Yelta, I agree with everything you said, yet out of frustration I'm left contemplating a better way.

    I guess what Chris was pointing out in post 17, is what most annoys me. It's not the slight variances in the process of 'making a coffee' that bothers me but rather those instances where the so called Barista gets it all Fundamentally wrong. It's the coffee master that serves it scolding hot, the cafe owner that cleans & services their gear once a fortnight whether it needs it or not, the cafe owner that bulk buys months of beans at a time or bulk grinds in 'quiet times' to save time & so forth that frustrates me.

    These day, I'm uber selective when it comes to purchasing when out and about & especially when travelling away from my 'hood'.

    After reading those Campos articles, I'm going to target more of their cafes when away from home.

    Leave a comment:


  • TampIt
    replied
    I utterly disagree with the basic premise that regulating / licensing would achieve anything worthwhile in the coffee industry.

    Reminds me of "Fair Trade" or "certified organic". Great ideas whose execution can be flawed to the point of irrelevance. One couple I know locally had a great great grandfather who came to Oz in the 1880's from Italy. Being a traditional farmer, he bought 200 or so acres in an area just south of Perth. Over the next ten years he cleared about 30 acres in the centre for his beloved Valencia oranges. Why the centre? So any neighbours spraying stuff on their crops would not affect his oranges. The farm has never purchased any herbicide, pesticide (or any other "cide") and was always fertilised with local blood & bone, chicken and/or sheep manure and other items from nearby farmers. The great*2 grandfather also used what is now called "companion planting" to minimise citrus diseases (e.g. olives and real Italian tomatoes to die for). It still took over 10 years starting in the mid 1980's and a bucketload of cash to get the organic certification due to a lot of chairwarming bureaucrats who were convinced that organic methods started in the US in the 1970's.

    Also, what kind of certification? In my case I did a two week intensive in 1979 "on the job" effort with Perth's top roaster / cafe at the time. It was followed by a week of slave labour to make up for his lost time. I have no certificate for that - it was my personal initiative that got the training arranged. I had already put in 4+ years (and occasional efforts over the next 4 years) as a "part time barista in fact" at the local uni (all La Cimbali gear, it paid for a lot of my studies) as a completely untrained (aka self taught) person. The fact that I had a lot of regulars who interrogated me as to my timetable each semester meant I must have been doing something right. I left the coffee industry years ago, having never worked full time in it. These days I still set up cafes for some friends, and also train the odd friend's barista "one on one". The last lady I trained took out second place in "Perth Now coffee shops" two years running, so there must be a good level of transferred competence there. She doesn't have a certificate either. Attitude is far more important than qualifications.

    Some of the worst coffees I encounter uptown (yep, can be pretty ugly) were from guys who had a "barista certificate" proudly hanging on the wall from a Perth professional coffee training school (professional in their own minds at least). Scalding the milk was only the final bungle of a complete train wreck right in front of my eyes.

    Like a few other posters, "voting with your feet" combined with the internet's role in increasing the knowledge of good coffee skills means the improvement over the last ten years is encouraging. Hopefully it will continue to improve.

    Those who talk about chains delivering quality - it does not always follow. Ever heard of Starbucks, Peabody (US) or (alas) Dome (whose early excellent Freo coffee is now a dimming memory).

    It is worth repeating one other point - who provides the standard for a good coffee? My heavily smoking friend who needs a dark roasted 22g VST triple shot before he can taste it? The other one who loves properly aged (ie not green and underdone) delicate light roasts? Those who cannot stand black coffee? Lattes? Those who dump half an ocean of sugar in every cup (one "uni regular" added NINE teaspoons in front of me every single day I worked there for four years)? The ones who think a quinine content of 80%+ is needed to qualify as a coffee? Those who can drink Indian Monsoon without noticing the mouldy jute aftertaste?

    Enjoy your cuppa, or introduce it to a sink. All else is irrelevant.

    TampIt

    Leave a comment:


  • lupus
    replied
    Those are the professions I understand. Could have said plumber, electrician...... don't fully understand their licensing so didn't use them as examples. But assume they would be similar

    I agree not likely to happen, but wanted to extend the thinking....

    Leave a comment:


  • Yelta
    replied
    Seriously people, it ain't gonna happen.

    "After all, when we see a doctor, dentist, vet, nurse, physiotherapist, etc," this is all getting a bit silly, (doctor, dentist, vet, nurse, physiotherapist, barista) can ya spot the odd one out.

    Leave a comment:


  • lupus
    replied
    Another point we have not raised in this discussion is the question of whom there regulation applied to? In the original post, Smee has put the onus of regulation and control on the business. Granted, the entity which is ultimately responsible for the end product is the business. However, at the end of the day, taste preferences aside, it is the 'barista' who is making the coffee. So, if we were to look at regulation, wouldn't it be barista's responsibility to get any relevant licensing, and abide by any rules and regulations created? After all, when we see a doctor, dentist, vet, nurse, physiotherapist, etc, the burden getting a license and complying with the rules and regulations of the licensing falls upon the individual. The business is responsible for ensuring the individuals employed are licensed, but the burden of licensing falls upon the individual.

    And, finally, remember, a licensing system is not a sign of quality. I know a hell of a lot of licensed drivers out there who really are not that good or safe a driver! A license is merely a piece of paper that says the individual the basic requirement to perform a task. There is no marker of quality in a licensing system, just a sign that the individual has passed the basic requirements to fulfil a task. After that, there distinction between a good and bad 'barista' then relies upon taste, skill, experience, personal pride, etc.

    Rather than a basic licensing or 'governmental' regulation system, a better way to proceed would be for cafes who wish to distinguish themselves from merely places that serve coffee, band together and form some form of professional group or association which sets its own standards. Then, they can promote and control what their own image and idea of quality and use that as an association front to separate themselves from the others.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barry O'Speedwagon
    replied
    I guess that (in addition to what I said in post #6) is that....there's no safety / health issue here (those that do exist are covered under present food regulations). I actually have no problem with some oft-criticised regulations like the requirement to wear bike helmets (I've seen a cyclist land on their head after being hit by a car and eventually come out with no more than whiplash)....it's not just about the cyclist, it's about anyone else involved in a collision, all the relatives involved and the cost of treatment.

    Leave a comment:


  • lupus
    replied
    Originally posted by Smee View Post
    Perhaps most of the associated cost could be worn by both the licensing fees & fines issued to non compliant operators.

    I don't imagine that cost of coffee would increase by 250% but I'd gladly pay more verses the money I've already wasted in purchasing crapola espresso.
    Smee,
    I wish I could be as optimistic as you are when it comes to minimal cost increases when the government takes a role within any process. I have seen the cost increases associated with importing products in the health profession when the Australian government decided it needed to ensure the safety of the products being imported. While I have no issues about this, if the government actually did its own testing and checked the safety of the products, I take offence when the so called licensing fee is simply taken and the so called testing is simply acceptance of European certification/standards. And the price rises are merely rubber stamping European certification. Imagin the price rises associated when the government actually has to employ staff to police quality standards......let alone dictate the definition of quality.

    As for the cost of fines defraying the cost of licensing, have you ever seen any government revenue actually remain in the area where the revenue was raised. It wouldn't be long before the fine revenue is absorbed into general revenue, and the licensing system simply change into a revenue raising exercise for the government.

    I agree with most of the other individuals who have posted so far. Competition is heavy in the fight for our coffee dollar. Let word of mouth dictate who succeeds and who doesn't. In the meantime, we live in the Information Age. Use the power of social media and community feedback to help you sort out the places worthy of a coffeesnob's attention and ignore the chaff out there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Enthusiast
    replied
    Originally posted by Yelta View Post
    Certainly not in my opinion Smee, seems some people are struck action-less unless there is a set of rules to guide them

    Australia is rapidly becoming a nanny state, cant move without being regulated by some bylaw.
    Australia nanny state: Have we become a nation of idiots?
    "You can ride a bike without a helmet in Europe, and you are trusted not to fall off (similarly, drivers are trusted not to run into you). You can wander freely onto public transport, and you are trusted to buy a ticket. You can drink a beer in the park, or on the pavement outside a bar, and you're trusted not to act like a drunken fool.

    You can't do those things in Australia because we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules, and we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules because there are some people out there who really need to be nannied. We don't all need it. But we have to put up with it because others do."


    I'm sure the cafe industry is well covered by health regulations, as far as defining by law how a cup of coffee should be made, way over the top as far as I'm concerned

    Why not self regulate, simple, don't like the coffee? don't return, easy, poor operators don't last long, the word spreads quickly.

    "Professional accreditation would be a fantastic step IMO." I always smile at this, (professional barista) bit like a professional sandwich maker or a professional lollipop person.

    To underscore the point, here's a professional Lollipop man who has been affected by the nanny state.
    I agree 100% Yelta!!!

    Here's a great example.........Everyones opinion of what makes a good pizza is different.
    I can't eat that shredded meat that we aren't used to finding on pizza here in Australia.
    I had some family friends from Italy ask me, after seeing that shredded processed meat on a pizza', 'you have such good quality meat in Australia, why do you put dog food on your your pizzas?" They thought it was meat from a can of Pal dog food!!!!
    I had to laugh, but my point is that the masses love crap, and as long as its at a market price, it's ok for them, and someone makes a living. Have a look at the people lining up to buy 7eleven coffee for $1. I can't drink it, I can't deal with the heartburn and sour rancidity.
    Likewise, I can't drink 3rd wave coffe. I find it too acidic and prefer 'comfort ' coffee roast profiles, which are dark, rich and chocolatey. So who's right?

    vote with your feet!

    Leave a comment:


  • LFM60
    replied
    Originally posted by Yelta View Post

    Ridiculous.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yelta
    replied
    Originally posted by Smee View Post

    Would a bit of regulation improve the overall situation, help those within the industry that deserve to thrive, thrive?
    Certainly not in my opinion Smee, seems some people are struck action-less unless there is a set of rules to guide them

    Australia is rapidly becoming a nanny state, cant move without being regulated by some bylaw.
    Australia nanny state: Have we become a nation of idiots?
    "You can ride a bike without a helmet in Europe, and you are trusted not to fall off (similarly, drivers are trusted not to run into you). You can wander freely onto public transport, and you are trusted to buy a ticket. You can drink a beer in the park, or on the pavement outside a bar, and you're trusted not to act like a drunken fool.

    You can't do those things in Australia because we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules, and we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules because there are some people out there who really need to be nannied. We don't all need it. But we have to put up with it because others do."


    I'm sure the cafe industry is well covered by health regulations, as far as defining by law how a cup of coffee should be made, way over the top as far as I'm concerned

    Why not self regulate, simple, don't like the coffee? don't return, easy, poor operators don't last long, the word spreads quickly.

    "Professional accreditation would be a fantastic step IMO." I always smile at this, (professional barista) bit like a professional sandwich maker or a professional lollipop person.

    To underscore the point, here's a professional Lollipop man who has been affected by the nanny state.

    Leave a comment:


  • CoffeeHack
    replied
    Originally posted by Smee View Post
    I didn't know that about Campos, thanks for sharing, I've always had good Campos experience.

    I agree brands could really drive a standard.
    I didn't know either until reading this recent article about their expansion into the US: Campos coffee makes the leap to snowfields of US market

    It's really good to see a company who genuinely appear to care about the product that is served to their customers, whilst also putting a lot of thought into the various sources of their beans.

    Leave a comment:


  • Smee
    replied
    Originally posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Magnetic Resonance Imaging?
    Sorry, that damn auto correct and I didn't notice the changes.

    I wrote NFI. I trust you know what that is

    Leave a comment:


  • Smee
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris View Post
    What doesn't help is the unwillingness of most people to actually complain. We sip at what we know is fundamentally crap coffee and rarely say a word knowing there are a hundred outlets nearby and next time you'll try another one.

    I can cope with a difference in taste - that's part of the fun. But when it's fundamental misunderstanding of the process and operation that becomes disappointing. An accreditation system wouldn't fully solve the problem but it would give consumers guidance and a feedback channel would offer a means to hold the premises to account.

    Absolutely ! Well Said, thanks to all for their thoughts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Smee
    replied
    Originally posted by samuellaw178 View Post
    Sounds good, but the only problem is we're probably not willing to pay $10 per cup. The accreditation, licensing, officer(needs his salary too), education, qualification/certification certainly cost money and it has to come from somewhere.
    Perhaps most of the associated cost could be worn by both the licensing fees & fines issued to non compliant operators.

    I don't imagine that cost of coffee would increase by 250% but I'd gladly pay more verses the money I've already wasted in purchasing crapola espresso.

    Leave a comment:

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