Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Espresso Diagnosis - I need help!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Espresso Diagnosis - I need help!

    Hi all,

    I'm having issues with my espresso set-up. So many issues that I've become quite disheartened with the whole process. I have a Diadema Perfetta single boiler and a Compak K3 Touch grinder. Years ago this combo was working brilliantly for me... But the issue that I have now is that the grinder does not seem to be able to get fine enough for espresso. If the grinder does get fine enough, it chokes up on the next grind and refuses to grind. I can hear the motor trying to work, but the burrs don't spin. I took the grinder to get it serviced a few months ago, the guy did say these grinders can get clogged with fines and refuse to grind. He cleaned it out with compressed air and lubed the top burr and gave it the all clear. The problem came back pretty quickly. I then took it to a highly regarded espresso company offering a free training course. With a kg of their beans we dialed in the grinder and the grinder gave us no problems at all (typical). When I took it home and tried my beans the problem returned. Most of the time (at home) I'm using home roasted beans, but I have nought beans from a local cafe and experienced the same problem.

    I'm wondering if the problem could be one of the following:
    1. I'm using a convex tamper? I've had this since I bought the machine and had no troubles whatsoever
    2. Home roasted beans? Could they be too fresh?
    3. Could this be caused by a roast that is too light?


    I would appreciate any help anyone can offer. I really want to sort this problem out, I miss the days when my set-up was working without issues... I'm happy to provide any extra information you might need.

    Please help me!

  • #2
    This is the sort of thing that is much easier to fix if you have a buddy that knows espresso and can come over and have a play, and much harder via a discussion thread. Having said that if you want to try fixing via a thread you are best off using fresh commercially roasted beans to narrow down the source of the problem. Pick whatever looks good on Beanbay, and buy enough of it that you have ample opportunity to experiment with various grind sizes. Post video links here to show your workflow and results

    Comment


    • #3
      Sorry, can you just clarify - is it the grinder that’s clogging up and ‘choking’ or the coffee machine?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
        Sorry, can you just clarify - is it the grinder that’s clogging up and ‘choking’ or the coffee machine?
        The grinder. I wish it was the machine...

        Comment


        • #5
          G'day David...

          Sounds like the Start/Run Capacitor is cactus mate.
          You can either obtain one and install yourself or bring it in to a reputable service agent and have them do it.
          It's a quick and simple job and the capacitor itself is inexpensive...

          Mal.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi David,

            I also run the Compak push at home and have experienced this problem when trying to grind too fine. Have you tried grinding slightly coarser and increasing the dose if possible (the convex tamp may be playing a part here)? How many grams is your dose at the moment? I also have used home roasted beans and if they are roasted very very lightly, the bean has lots of moisture and tends to clog the burrs a lot easier. Also how long does it take to pull one shot? if your trying to make it soo fine that the shot takes over 35s for 60ml this could also be an issue. If your running an 18g filter than your brew time range should be about 25-30 seconds for a 60ml yield. Also maybe you just need some new burrs??

            Let me know how its all going?

            Mike

            Comment


            • #7
              My experience is similar to SpiceBean. Interestingly it usually coincides with removing the top burr for cleaning.

              Do you run the grinder whilst adjusting it?

              Comment


              • #8
                I hope you get to the bottom of this [emoji22]
                When you say 'years ago' it is easy to suspect the burrs.
                It might be wear and tear of certain parts; when looked at individually maybe insignificant, but combined effects can amplify the problem.
                If your basket is very heavily used, over the same time period as the grinder, it may need replacing. Holes do get bigger with use and wear, which naturally prompts you to grind finer to compensate. We're taking about gradual shifts over the months and years. Combine this with not as sharp burrs like before, maybe the burr clearance is too narrow now? This can maybe explain your constipation?
                You took your grinder in to a company/espresso course, got it dialed in, and was working ok there. Assuming you took only the grinder, with their good basket, it maybe didn't need to go as fine? Well, if you took your grinder home and used it without changing the setting, and then it clogged again, then we can suspect the beans.
                Home roasted or store bought, it gives you blockages.. your preference has gradually changed over the years to lighter side? They are harder than darker roasts. Maybe you are buying more high grown beans? They are denser. Lightly roasted denser beans needs more torque to grind through. Again, aging grinder might struggle, whereas new might fly through them.
                Having said all that, exactly when the grinder stops is another indicator to what might be the cause. Is it the moment you turn it on? Towards the end of the grind?

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have a K3 grinder as well. If you adjust to finer, make sure to adjust it while the motor is running. That way I could adjust even finer than what I previously calibrated to be the “zero” burr-touching-burr point (judging by the scale marking on the adjustment collar) without jamming.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dimal View Post
                    G'day David...

                    Sounds like the Start/Run Capacitor is cactus mate.
                    You can either obtain one and install yourself or bring it in to a reputable service agent and have them do it.
                    It's a quick and simple job and the capacitor itself is inexpensive...

                    Mal.
                    Hi Mal,

                    I should have added that if I wind the grind coarser it will start grinding again. Then I can even adjust finer back to where it was originally choking and it will continue grinding as long as I don't let go of the "go" lever.

                    Originally posted by SpiceBean View Post
                    Hi David,

                    I also run the Compak push at home and have experienced this problem when trying to grind too fine. Have you tried grinding slightly coarser and increasing the dose if possible (the convex tamp may be playing a part here)? How many grams is your dose at the moment? I also have used home roasted beans and if they are roasted very very lightly, the bean has lots of moisture and tends to clog the burrs a lot easier. Also how long does it take to pull one shot? if your trying to make it soo fine that the shot takes over 35s for 60ml this could also be an issue. If your running an 18g filter than your brew time range should be about 25-30 seconds for a 60ml yield. Also maybe you just need some new burrs??

                    Let me know how its all going?

                    Mike
                    Hi Mike,

                    I'm using an 18g VST and dosing 23g. I don't have much more room to increase. My 60mL yield is occurring in less than 15 seconds.

                    Originally posted by MrJack View Post
                    My experience is similar to SpiceBean. Interestingly it usually coincides with removing the top burr for cleaning.

                    Do you run the grinder whilst adjusting it?
                    Hi MrJack,

                    Yes. Always.

                    Originally posted by u2jewel View Post
                    I hope you get to the bottom of this [emoji22]
                    When you say 'years ago' it is easy to suspect the burrs.
                    It might be wear and tear of certain parts; when looked at individually maybe insignificant, but combined effects can amplify the problem.
                    If your basket is very heavily used, over the same time period as the grinder, it may need replacing. Holes do get bigger with use and wear, which naturally prompts you to grind finer to compensate. We're taking about gradual shifts over the months and years. Combine this with not as sharp burrs like before, maybe the burr clearance is too narrow now? This can maybe explain your constipation?
                    You took your grinder in to a company/espresso course, got it dialed in, and was working ok there. Assuming you took only the grinder, with their good basket, it maybe didn't need to go as fine? Well, if you took your grinder home and used it without changing the setting, and then it clogged again, then we can suspect the beans.
                    Home roasted or store bought, it gives you blockages.. your preference has gradually changed over the years to lighter side? They are harder than darker roasts. Maybe you are buying more high grown beans? They are denser. Lightly roasted denser beans needs more torque to grind through. Again, aging grinder might struggle, whereas new might fly through them.
                    Having said all that, exactly when the grinder stops is another indicator to what might be the cause. Is it the moment you turn it on? Towards the end of the grind?
                    I took my whole setup to the espresso course. Grinder, machine, my scales, my baskets.

                    Let's assume I've labelled my grinder between 10 and 1 over the espresso range. 1 is the finest. I grind for a shot on 5, pull the shot, get 60mL yield in 15 seconds. Adjust to 3, grind, yield in 20 seconds. Then I press the grind lever again to adjust finer and nothing happens. Like I said, I can hear something happening, but no action. Does that help?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      yeah 23g, 60ml 15 secs is quite coarse indeed. Even 20secs is quite coarse for a 23g dose. Sounds like a bit of a mystery, however it may just be the burrs. If I was you I would get some nice new burrs put in and see if that fixes it, this is going to be cheaper than buying a new machine. If that doesn't work than maybe a new machine is needed. Keep in mind though that these grinders are very durable and when used domestically should last a very very long time.

                      Mike

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi David, I am not far off being a newbie, so my comments may be wide of the mark. But, is not 23gms into a 18gm VST 4gm too much. 17-19gms is the norm I think? As such you are grinding too fine and choking the grinder. Is the 60 ml yield the result of severe channeling. Have you always -used this basket- this dose (23gms). How is the headspace try the 5cent test, how heavy do you tamp to get 23gms into to 18gm basket. I would try a 19gm dose and work from there. I also would not listen to my advice on technical questions like this. good luck hope you fix it soon. John

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by David8 View Post

                          I took my whole setup to the espresso course. Grinder, machine, my scales, my baskets.

                          Let's assume I've labelled my grinder between 10 and 1 over the espresso range. 1 is the finest. I grind for a shot on 5, pull the shot, get 60mL yield in 15 seconds. Adjust to 3, grind, yield in 20 seconds. Then I press the grind lever again to adjust finer and nothing happens. Like I said, I can hear something happening, but no action. Does that help?
                          Yes, every info helps you to help us to help you [emoji41]
                          In most grinders, especially if you are in the fine grind end of the grinder setting, you need to keep the machine running, with beans in the hopper and continuously grinding beans while dialing the setting to finer. Wasteful, but this is ideal to avoid bean jam in between burrs (not the fine coffee powder blockage). Sometimes you can get away with dialing finer if your grind chamber is empty, with no beans being fed. The worst is grinding chamber full of beans, and while stationary, you shift the dial to finer. Going coarser has no such effect. You can do it with grinder off and with or without beans inside.
                          (please take no offense, none intended; mentioned it just in case someone else might have same symptoms. Judging on the limited set of info to go on, It's a classic Noobie encounter, but.. Since you are familiar with your setup for years, this is unlikely)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SpiceBean View Post
                            yeah 23g, 60ml 15 secs is quite coarse indeed. Even 20secs is quite coarse for a 23g dose. Sounds like a bit of a mystery, however it may just be the burrs. If I was you I would get some nice new burrs put in and see if that fixes it, this is going to be cheaper than buying a new machine. If that doesn't work than maybe a new machine is needed. Keep in mind though that these grinders are very durable and when used domestically should last a very very long time.

                            Mike
                            Not a bad idea. Generally how visible is wear on burrs? I've pulled the burrs out and they don't appear damaged. At least, not beyond what I would consider normal for their age. Ballpark, what's a new set of flat burrs worth?

                            Originally posted by chippy View Post
                            Hi David, I am not far off being a newbie, so my comments may be wide of the mark. But, is not 23gms into a 18gm VST 4gm too much. 17-19gms is the norm I think? As such you are grinding too fine and choking the grinder. Is the 60 ml yield the result of severe channeling. Have you always -used this basket- this dose (23gms). How is the headspace try the 5cent test, how heavy do you tamp to get 23gms into to 18gm basket. I would try a 19gm dose and work from there. I also would not listen to my advice on technical questions like this. good luck hope you fix it soon. John
                            I've heard this a lot chippy. 23g in a 18g VST does sound like a lot. I do have quite a firm tamp, probably as a result of trying to slow my extractions down... I've done the 5c test and everything else. The espresso course I mentioned earlier - I may as well name it - was at Di Bella Coffee Bowen Hills, they have a free "get to know your machine" course where basically I had one-on-one with their barista. I knew it would be noobie level, but in a way I really wanted to go back to basics and determine if there was a fundamental flaw in my knowledge... I think it was probably the Di Bella beans that agreed with the grinder, as it behaved very well for the barista. Much to my disgust... We agreed on a 23g dose there as well. Remember I use a convex tamper (for better or worse), so the 5c test isn't 100% applicable, but is still a very good guide. I'm familiar enough with my set up to remember where a good dose sits on the basket relative to my tamper height if that makes sense? Again - if I find out that I have a fundamental problem in my technique - I will try and address it. I'll perform the 5c test again and post for interests sake.

                            Originally posted by u2jewel View Post
                            Yes, every info helps you to help us to help you [emoji41]
                            In most grinders, especially if you are in the fine grind end of the grinder setting, you need to keep the machine running, with beans in the hopper and continuously grinding beans while dialing the setting to finer. Wasteful, but this is ideal to avoid bean jam in between burrs (not the fine coffee powder blockage). Sometimes you can get away with dialing finer if your grind chamber is empty, with no beans being fed. The worst is grinding chamber full of beans, and while stationary, you shift the dial to finer. Going coarser has no such effect. You can do it with grinder off and with or without beans inside.
                            (please take no offense, none intended; mentioned it just in case someone else might have same symptoms. Judging on the limited set of info to go on, It's a classic Noobie encounter, but.. Since you are familiar with your setup for years, this is unlikely)
                            No offence taken. Like I said in this post, maybe what I need to do is go back to basics and relearn everything...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              A set of new burrs is around the $100 mark give or take. You can request a quote from the sponsors to see if any hot deals pop up.

                              As far as what blunt burrs look like, it is sort of like asking what a blunt knife looks like, in other words its quite hard to tell by looking. But you should be able to feel if the tips of the burrs are nice and sharp or more rounded. If rounded and quite smooth than they are blunt. Maybe you can pop into an espresso machine service place near you to see/feel what sharp burrs look like than decipher if you need new ones.

                              Mike

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X